Rating the Top Books

[35]

[Shawn]

Hartley,

I'm only posting this because your e-mail is listed as "unavailable". Else, I'd write personally.

Do you feel I've libelled Intertops? If so, how? I've quoted their soccer lines accurately. I've also stated I'm re-opening with them. I joked (hence the winking smiley, not the growling frowny) I might get my account closed, but I thought that was substantially harmless. After all, I have to win first, and last year I netted out to -$300 with those guys (acct: SHA60455)

I only know what I read about that player's beef with the company that went to arbitration. I never referred to it.

I do know two players personally who were asked to take their business elsewhere, but I didn't bring that up--we all know this happens at every shop and is a fact of life.

I did want to make my point that their soccer lines are absolutely outrageous, and they are, but yes I'll be back for Veikkausliiga the first of May. I still think I can win in that one league.

I do not think I've libelled Intertops.

A final question, Hartley: Are you in any way, directly or indirectly, on Intertops' payroll? You've given us much useful information on them (during hurricanes, promotions, so forth) and I'm wondering if you're strictly a client or if you're also affiliated.

Cheers,

Shawn

[mls]

And, as Hartley says, did the Antigua Free Trade Zone really side with Intertops by allowing them not to pay the $100,000 owed to several players last year (alleging some "syndicate" or other nonsense)??

[playersonly]

in answer to your question, yes...the Free Trade Zone sided with Intertops and my friends only got there post up back, leaving about 50K in Intertops pockets. As solid as you all think Antigua is...just remember who pays the Free Trade Zone salaries....what goes around, always comes around.

[Cons]

I don't see anything wrong with Shawn's post under Intertops soccer. He makes some valid points as well.

I would like to see the part about people getting "booted" looked into. I don't agree with it and like I mentioned earlier, unless you're hitting the book for tens of thousands then I don't think it should happen. Any book that does that doesn't deserve any respect. Not even the smallest bit of respect.

Seriously, if you get an orgasm out of losing your dosh, then books like that are great. They pat you on your back and wait for more payments from you. But getting the boot simply because you win is ridiculous. Look at the stats: only about 3-7 per cent of players win. If over 90% of your customers lose, how greedy do you have to be to try and get that number up with such petty measures. I will have no respect for a book that does that. Any respectful book will acknowledge the win as part of the game. I would like more people to post their experiences with getting kicked out simply for being successful. After all, it's this assumption that made them start betting in the first place. In addition, these people will come back under other names (brothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives). I think doing this is the next worse thing after "pulling the plug."

I was under the impression that Hartley is employed by Intertops. I think there's nothing wrong with that, especially since there's someone here who can listen to us and make sure we're treated like decent people. But I was a little surprised to see the previous thread closed. Censorship? I thought that was the role of the US or Chinese governments...

Anyway, Intertops soccer lines aren't great; it's no secret. I think highly of Intertops in general, and although the soccer lines overall aren't brilliant, they offer value sometimes, like in today's Tottenham game. I would like to regain my respect for Intertops after the allegations of people betting booted. After all, I'm not ahead with them at this time, all due to the fixed France-Brazil game. Otherwise I would be. But I would like to be assured that I won't be "dumped" simply because I accomplish was I strive to do. Win.

[ray]

Talking about the soccer lines at Intertops, here are my 2 cents,

well, their lines is not the best around the books BUT be honest with you, I've found out that their lines improved a lots lately on those "bettable" games.

What I mean "bettable" is, normally the home team favors.

Of course you can argue that VC and DAS are with much better soccer lines as you can see the vig is smaller. However, when you come down to certain games and with the sides you like, Intertops is still a choice for me.

Like today's Worthington Cup, they've got Spurs at +120 (I made the bets Fri nite).

So, IMO, it all depends on whats your betting pattern and who do you like, they still will have something better than the others.

If you are looking for soccer dogs, try VC, DAS, B&W, Olympic, etc.

If you are looking for home team favors, you still better shop around.

[phep]

I agree wholeheartely with Cons. Any book that bans a player for simply winning should be put out of business in a hurry. 90% of players lose so the books are taking in more than they should anyway. Do these books advertise "losers wanted." No. However, if they ban a player for simply winning by being a good handicapper, they might as well. If Intertops indeed banned a player for legitimately beating them, then that's a problem.

[oddswiz]

Though Intertops may be at one extreme,and another book at another,you'll have to put alot of books out of business if the criteria you're using is that if they ever shut a guy off,they're no good.

[playersonly]

We have been in business for many years and have NEVER once shut a guy off. Never. IN any of our books

Patrick

[oddswiz]

Patrick,has anyone at players ever told a potential player "if you constantly beat us to a number,we don't want your business?"

[playersonly]

No one ever beats us to the number. You beat us to the number and our bookmakers get fired, not the customers.

[playersonly]

I just did some calculations, we earned 91.1% over the last four months. Come on in and give us a shot, our lines are tough...and I promise you won't get kicked out.

[oddswiz]

Have your bookmakers ever been fired?

[playersonly]

Never had a need. They did screw up one thing in hockey this year that costs us a small fortune, but the earn is still high. You want to bet a favorite...do it here. You want to bet a dog...go to Intertops. Watch the lines.

[oddswiz]

I'd get rid of one or two of them for the hockey fiasco.Keeps the others on their toes.

[Cons]

One of the reason why I opened with Victor Chandler was because they have a 50,000 limit (not that I need it!). I agree with an old post from Oddswiz that when a book offers really hight limits, you should be on the lookout. But Victor Chandler's reputation speaks for itself, so I decided to open up shop. Since the limits are so high, they obviously have some big players, so going ahead with them by a relatively small amount won't make them panic, right? I opened up like a month ago and have gone up by 50% already. But my account is in four and not five digits, which is why I know I won't get thrown overboard. Plus I respect the book to the point where I don't think they would do that sort of thing to me.

There's mention of beating a book to the number. Does that mean getting a line that's good (maybe before it changes?), or simply knowing your stuff? Sometimes I pick out good lines, but other times I will take bad lines if I'm confident of the outcome and have done my homework. I tend to look at the games themselves before I look at the lines. Too many people look at a line thinking, "Gee, nice line. Good value. I'll take it." If you'd ask them what they would do if the line (say NBA) was "worse" by 1.5 points they would say "I'd take the other team." They base their decisions on the line instead of what they believe the outcome to be. I'd say suckering people into taking a play is not that hard. I have seen a handful of NBA plays where you think it can't be right. The line must be off. Then you check the result and you see it CAN be right.

Intertops soccer lines, like Ray said, have gotten better on heavy favorites. VC is good for dogs, but on premiership matches they're really good for heavy favorites. But like I said before, I had Tottenham at Intertops and it was the best line I could get at my three outs.

A book has the right to set its lines, its limits, and whatever juice it wants. It's up to us to take them on or not. But one thing I can't stand is hearing from people that they were thrown off the train because they achieved some success. It's not the way things should be. It's a fair game, and you win your money fair and square. It's not like you cheat the book out of some profits.
Both sides should play the game fairly.

Look at WWTS. Don't they even offer interest on accounts? See how far some books go to offer their customers the best service. Imagine the interest that some books are earning on our money. In some cases it could well cover most of their fixed expenses.

[tim]

So VC has a $50,000 limit, huh? See if they'll take that on an NBA, NHL, or baseball total? People are so full of SH!T..

[STING]

Just my two cents here...Hartley is a client of Intertops and fact is they are a fine book, but they target a whole different market - the small time player, the leisure player, whatever you want to call it. I don't think Intertops makes any secret of this. The head of Intertops is a real class act so it does not surprise me at all that Hartley would be pushing this place as he does (actually he does not do it enough).

[Cons]

Tim, can't say about total. That's what the claim, but I don't make these big bets. Sting, I thought Hartley works for Intertops. He knows so much about everything that goes on there, more than an outsider would know.

Who is the head guy at Intertops? I remember talking to a "boss" guy called Michael I think. I also think he might have been Austrian. The guy I'm talking about was a really class act. I called to raise my limit once and was told "no prob." Instantly I could bet more on that one play.

I think we all know that Intertops targets the small audience. The previous time they put me right through to Michael. This time I didn't get a chance to ask him. Although I can understand that they deal with the small-time bettor, which their limits do show, they should set us at easy by assuring us that they won't ditch us simply if we're ahead. Anyway, don't get me wrong. I don't want them to raise the limits all the time or something. I don't bet over their 1100 limit all the time. But every so often I would like to clear that benchmark and it would be nice to be able to do that. But it's their call, and the issue is that I have been hearing that they boot people who win. And I would like to hear more about that.


[Note: This message has been edited by oddswiz]

[ray]

C'mom, people.

Is it really matter that whether Hartlet is working for Intertops or not?

It only matters to me that whether his posts make sense or not.

Who cares if Hartley is actually working for some Russian mobs and planning to destroy the white house in the coming future?

[Cons]

Hmmm...

[Cons]

I really can't complain about Intertops' limits. That's their decision. But I have heard about people getting shut down for winning. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with that?

At Interops, I have to give credit to Carol for helping me out with the funds transfer problem. I think she was great. But whoever "Dr" is should read my emails fully before answering. Also, is Michael still there in Antigua?

[BBKing]

Does anyone know where I can find specifics on the Intertops vs. "syndicate" players case?

[Hartley]

OK, let's clear this up once and for all.

1) I am a client of Intertops and have been for over 2 years (when they were still based in Austria and charging the 10% tax).

2) I have built up a good relationship with the company and hence if I ask for information they provide it to me - eg. when the hurricane hit, I asked them what was going on and they provided me with a statement to post here. There is hardly anything wrong with that. But I do not work for Intertops although if I did I would consider it an honor.

3) For certain things their lines are good and for others they aren't. However, that goes for all books. In another post we heard how every NASCAR line at WWTS was well below other books. It's their decision and if you don't like the lines don't bet.

4) Intertops has taken their site and improved it greatly all due to the advice of people here in this forum (and from other feedback). People asked for an opportuntiy to parlay sides and totals, so they set this up. People asked for dime lines on baseball so they offered this. People asked for the ability to bet preseason baseball so they posted this. People asked for overnights so they posted overnights. They are trying to be as accommodating as possible yet all they hear are complaints - usually about the limits. They are one of very few that offer overnights so any limit is better than none - which you would get at other places.

5) They do not have teasers and cross sport parlays - YET. The company has informed me (among others) that they are currently working on this and instead of putting up a system which isn't that good they are working on one which will offer everything and be as user friendly as possible. Football season is a while away. They have plenty of time to set up the teasers - have patience.

But the bottom line as I see it is as follows. If you don't like the way a company operates or you don't like their lines (and this goes for any book), why come here and bitch about it. Just cross them off your list. If they are not paying customers, if they are giving out client information etc. then by all means please post it here. That is what this forum is for. But don't come here just to bitch because you're hoping that somehow your anger is going to cause them to change their policies regarding lines or limits. It won't happen - not with Intertops, not with SOS, not with Bowman's, not with William Hill etc. etc.

To me this is the equivalent of someone who uses a dentist that charges too much money. So the person tells everyone around what a horrible dentist he is and how overpriced he is. Yet 6 months later he sets up an appointment with the same dentist.

That's my opinion anyways.

[randyrohm]

Hartley, I couldn't help but chuckle when you suggested people "just cross a book off their list" instead of airing the complaint. Every few months you find beefs about a sportsbook and rip them a new a$$ on this forum and most of the time you don't even have an account there. Sterling was the latest to draw your rath and you reuest others keep their complaints to themselves? Let people tell it like it is and the chips fall where they may.

[Hartley]

Randy you missed my point completely. I said if you have a legitimate beef against them relating to not being paid, acts of indiscretion, illegal acts etc. then they should be exposed because this is important info. for the player.

However, complaining about lines or limits you don't like is a waste of time. Simply cross them off the list and move on.

When I tear a strip of their ass (as you stated) it is always because they are doing something which is concerning - never relating to lines, limits etc. (check my prior posts and you'll see what I mean).

My complaint with Sterling had nothing to do with their lines I just found it concerning that they were willing to reveal info. about someone on a public site rather than e-mailing Duke Fan directly. Other books I complained about were due to the amount of junk mail they send and also to customer service issues that aren't proper.

You'll never see me post a gripe about a book because I don't like their lines. I guarantee you there are instances when I saw lines at Intertops or Bowman's I didn't particularly like so I looked elsewhere to see who had better lines. I didn't come here to complain about the lines though as it was the book's decision on how to set the lines.

[Shawn]

Well, I still can't quite believe my thread was locked off, but I guess that's that.

I didn't figure this thread would have twenty-odd posts herein, but that's that too.

One point I would make is that several "rants" in this forum have led directly to books changing policies. A few recent examples:

1: VC Asian Lines posted (Ray requested this) then going from 25-30 cents to 20-cents (I claim credit for raising this last)

2) VC Soccer Totals made more fair for North Americans (Cons raised this)

3) Canbet switches from split line to Canadian line on pucks (dunno who suggested this, it was well after I closed at Canbet, but this site and this forum broke the news, so it must have influenced it)

4) Sterling goes from 30-cent Canadian to 20 cent Canadian on pucklines, breaking the news in this forum (no clue who suggested it, never played there).

I agree, Hartley...wagering with Intertops can be very much like a trip to the dentist. Alas, for Veikkausliiga, they're the only dentist in town. If another major book offered it, I'd bolt. I'm just complaining they should use some novocaine instead of grabbing sixteen percent of the handle.

Cheers,
Shawn

[walleyek]

I've been in the offshore game for several years now and have tried many different books. By far the best telephone shop is Bowman's, but I'm disappointed they no longer accept Western Union Quick Collect as a deposit vehicle, or havce joined the online game. I prefer online wagering, and after using several, my nod goes to Carib. I'm in the software biz and Carib's site is the most efficent and intuitive. They pay promptly, offer overnight lines and games are rated seconds after they end. WSEX comes in second, and their web site also is excellent. I don't like the fact they don't rate action right away. They also don't have overnights. Third goes to GSC. A weaker online interface than Carib and WSEX, but overall fairly good. I do not like Intertops (unreliable web site), Interwetten (ungodly surtax added to all action), or Island Casino (past payment problems). Any new ones I should check out?

[Hartley]

So Patrick let me get this right. Your lines are so perfect and the numbers change so little that it is virtually impossible for a player to beat you.

And as players we are supposed to be happy about that?

Also, I'm not impressed with your answer about the Free Trade Zone. To say "yes we lost but that's only because companies operating in Antigua are what pay the taxes and allow the free trade zone to exist" (which is more or less what you were saying) is unfair.

You both went through due process and the courts came to a decision they thought was fair. Because you didn't agree with the decision doesn't make the courts corrupt. If the courts were truly corrupt they would have sided with Intertops without even hearing the case.

Would you still feel the same way had the courts sided with yourselves?

[Hartley]

Define "unreliable web site".

Also, I would add Centrebet to the list - for those that aren't betting from the States.

[Phil]

I started with Bowmans and continue to love them for their skewed to the dog lines, but MAN OH MAN their telephones are pissing me off these days. Constant busy signals (and i have ALL their numbers), not being able to get through...why can't a book that is their size invest in some upgraded technology.

[mojothekingslayer]

Hartley-

It looks like you're coming down a little hard on Patrick, and I hope you don't mind if I step up and defend him a bit.

The number of books that will take all action and high limits, and never boot a player for winning can be counted on one hand. Obviously he's going to have to post some very sharp numbers to back that up, and I commend him for making the challenge to every sharpie out here. He's obviously walking the walk, so in my book is allowed to talk the talk. Just my opinion.

He also runs a string of books known to pay and on time, while delivering topflight customer service.

So he's got a bone to pick with Intertops, and now we know why. Its a fact that Intertops kicks guys out for winning too much, which none of us like, and I'm sure a book like Patricks which never does, disrespects Itops for this policy. Also, it looks like some buddies of Patricks were the ones who put a whupping on Itops, which technically, they didn't have to pay, because they were hit by a "syndicate". If my memory serves me right, they did it hitting multiple team parlays, 5 (?) teamers which as we know is incredibly difficult. Lets face it, we all dream of the day this will happen to us, and the thought of not being paid after such an unlikely occurance makes our collective blood boil.

I think all of us bettors will agree that the letter of the Itops rules let them wiggle out, while the spirit of the betting honor code makes them look very bad. Combine this with our distrust of Carribean court systems, and those who "finance" them, and, well....I for one can understand where Patrick is coming from.

Btw, Patrick has come into this forum and given us some very solid information throughout. I have no reason to doubt his latest statements, and I hope this little skirmish won't deter him from posting up again.

[Hartley]

Try 1-888-944-2244. I have never had trouble getting through on that line.

[Hartley]

Randy, you won't be booted - YET. But what the hell are you talking about? What does the $94 fee your place charges have to do with Intertops or Player's Only.

Mojo. I understand what you are saying and I wouldn't say that Player's Only is a bad book - I wouldn't know them from Adam. From what I hear people find them fair - sobeit. By all means bet with them.

But I don't like Patrick coming here and saying we lost the court case so it has to be because "they know who pays their salaries."

That is a cop out, IMO.

[M!chael]

I also would like to see the specifics in the Intertops vs. "syndicate" players case? How did the court define "syndicate"? Is there a write-up anywhere on this website?

[Cons]

I have to side with Shawn here. Those of us that play the soccer action regularly know how much our opinions have influenced VC's lines. When I joined VC, Shawn let out a hand to me and mentioned how he managed to get through more competitive asian line. When I complained about the totals, claiming that Centrebet was much fairer with them, Chris ensured me he would do something about it and voila. The lines are respectable now.

This sort of feedback has been effective, but without Chris' cooperation on what were reasonable claims by us, we would not be enjoying this healthy wagering environment.

I have heard of this syndicate thing but am worried what would happen if one of us happened to win a lot. Would we branded as being part of a syndicate and have our winnings confiscated? I trust we won't have to face this sort of scenario, but it makes me wonder what the safeguards are that would prevent something like this happening to one of us regulars.

Once and for all, I would like to know what the "getting booted" situation is. How much do you have to earn from Intertops for them to decide they don't want you? If any of you got kicked out then could you admit how much you won? Hartley, you know more about Intertops than anyone, how much would one have to earn to lose his account?

[Cons]

I haven't tried WSEX or Carib, but I have been with Intertops for a while. I like their online system, but then I don't really have anything to compare them to. But it suits me fine. I think they do a good job at ensuring it is a safe and tried system. I wonder if any books out there have a "less than complete" program running that has more bugs than a dead dog in a New Delhi drain. I have had a few instances though with the Intertops system that caused me to curse a little...

Once I placed a bet and clicked to verify it. I waited, waited, but because of the connections nothing happened. So I clicked again and it went through. But then I checked my account history and saw that it took my bet twice. I decided to leave it and won incidentally.

Then there's the thing about the line changing before you verify the wager. Just like Bowmans odds used to change mid-call back in the day. On one occasion I thought I placed a bet but didn't, because once the next screen loaded up I thought it was the verifying one, though it must have been the one that informed me the odds have just changed. I didn't even read it, thinking as usual (for the 100th time) that it was the same confirmation screen as always.

Anyway, I like their software, as they have had much experience in the online wagering field. I don't like their odds or other "policies," but the system suits me and looks fail-safe indeed.

[Hartley]

To: Randy Mokojumbo or Hadeed or whatever your actual name is:

I stated that I wouldn't pay money to sign up with a book. I stand by that. If Intertops, Bowmans, SOS or anyone asked me for money as a fee to open an account I would say "thanks but no thanks."

As for the company you are referring to, I challenge you to find one instance where I said they were a bad book or a bad place to bet with. I've never bet with them and to be perfectly honest I've heard a lot of positive feedback about them. My only beef with your whole organization (and I believe I speak for most of Bettorsworld here) is Somach's watchdog articles which IMO, are cruel and serve no other purpose except to incite anger and brainwash those who aren't familiar with the industry. Until Somach came on the scene, I don't think there was one post about the book or paper that you are connected with.

To Cons: I don't know. But I'm sure if you e-mail the free trade zone they will provide you with the information. I don't know the exact URL but I believe if you checked in Altavista you could find it.

As for your comments about my knowledge of Intertops, I will not apologize for my feelings about them. I've used several books in the past and to me they are the most helpful, friendly and easy to use book going. And most importantly, they bend over backwards to ensure the bettor is treated right - at least that's the experience I've always had.

To me that is the most important quality in a book. I know other books have come on here saying "yeah our customer service sucks but we pay." Well paying is no longer a salient feature of a book. Whether you use Intertops, Bowman's, SOS, Carib, William Hill, Canbet etc., etc., you will be paid. These are all solid books with good financial backing and you know your money is safe. What separates the books IMO, is customer service and to me no one beats Intertops' customer service. If you e-mail them, they will answer right away. With other books you could wait weeks. If you have a complaint they will address it immediately and try to come to a satisfactory solution. With other books they often just ignore the complaint.

That is why I rate Intertops number 1, and I make no apologies for it!!

[Reebook21]

I have a couple of questions about Intertops, How much is to much? Before they cut you off? And most importantly what is thier policy with future pending wagers once they do cut you off? Don't even tell me they don't honor them.

[walleyek]

For some reason, I've had really slow connections with Intertops. Carib and WSEX seem much quicker. I agree that Bowman's should upgrade their phone system (as well as add online action). Their numbers get exceptionally bad on weekends. I was thinking about trying Aces or Sterling. Any feedback on those two?

[Phil]

sterling seems quite good, but if you're looking for slow lines, don't go there. They are pretty sharp.

[Cons]

Yeah, that's the question I asked on my previous post. How much is too much?

Hartley, I never said anything negative about your good relations with Intertops. If you remember I even posted that it's a good thing if you are involved with them, cause at least we would have someone on the inside to make sure everything runs smoothly. I see nothing wrong with you backing them as one of the best, because I do the same with Bowmans and VC. We're all entitled to these opinions.

I have mixed feelings about Intertops' customer service, though things have evened out now. I sent an email and had to reply five times and still got the same wrong answer. I was asking how much it will cost me to get a wire _from them_ and I kept getting told to ask my bank how much it would cost me to send money over. But Carol took matters into her own hands and is the most helpful person along with Chris+Gregg from VC that I have ever dealt with in the industry. I will be asking for her every time because she went out of her way to help me out. Big time. Getting international exchange rates for me in case I wanted to switch currency, unusual withdrawal payment options, etc. Top class lady.

But going back to my first question, how much is too much?

[Cons]

You might want to see Victor Chandler, under www.superbook.com . They are real good, reliable as a Swiss bank, and might be worth looking into. I'm with them and am very happy. They do phone wagering, but are supposedly working on an online system as well.

[jacmar]

Phil.....When you use the term "slow lines",do you mean a book that doesn't change their lines too fast? Do you know any reliable books that don't change their lines too fast?

[Phil]

Jacmar = I am with only the biggest and well established books. They all are pretty sharp when it comes to moving lines, which obvously is not good for the player

by the same token, I know i will always get paid.

[Dwayne]

Mokojumby,

After a total of 25 posts you become a member. It doesn't really get you anything though. I see you have 6, on 19 to go.

And WSEX has always been good to me, I love the interactive futures trading, which nobody else offers. (At least to my knowledge anyway.)

[phep]

Checked out Players Only web site. It is impressive. Claim virtually instant deposits and withdrawals with all charges covered. Dime line on baseball. On line interface. 10% sign up bonus with no limit.

[boris]

if a punter's winning, why doesn't the book do the smart thing and send his money plus more somewhere else to make a win-win situation?? Or does is take an Aussie to work that out? If you know who is winning, then follow their tips!!

[boris]

what is interactive futures trading?

[Hartley]

Trust me Dwayne, Mokojumby won't get 25 posts here.

[Hartley]

Boris, you have to try it out - it is fun. Essentially they set a market buy and sell price on each player/team and adjust it as the game/tournament goes on. You can then sell your "shares" that you already purchased or you can buy some at the current market price.

As an example, Fred Couples is 2-4 for the TPC which essentially means that they will buy shares from you at $2 each (i.e. they will pay you $2 for each share you have) or you can buy shares at $4 each.

Each share that wins is worth $100. So technically, you are getting about 24-1 on Couples which is better than his actual odds. If he jumps out to (say) -5 through 9 holes, you'll probably see his market move to something like 10-13. In this case if you had bought (say) 10 shares at $4 each, you can either hold onto them or sell them for $10 each and guarantee a $6 profit on each share. The rest of the tournament then becomes irrelevant.

For a knowledgeable bettor it is a good way to make money.

I'd highly recommend WSEX to anybody, especially because of the futures markets as well as the ability to bet NBA highest scoring player for the day and also the ability to parlay any matchups and game lines.

My biggest concern with them was always the lawsuit that was being over their heads, but it looks like it is a moot point now with the new ammendments to the bill.

They are a solid book with low minimums, high maximums and a huge variety of bet offers.

That is why I ranked them right up there with Intertops.