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Reno...Now that I think about it we had one run of 5 yrs without a losing month, with my scalpers close to bail me out. To illustrate how valuable they were let me relay a story. I never wanted my scalpers to leave to shop for different #s. Of course the technology available to them was not what it is today. We needed their physical presence so I went to the owners with an idea. The Stardust was a long rectangle, like a Velveta cheese box for those of us who grew up in less than affluent circumstances. The R&S Book was at one end next to the pit. I told the owners to put another sportsbook at the other end of the building. Make it completely seperate in every way. Use their own #s, own accountants and their own bottom line. Now the scalpers/middlers & ALL would never have to leave to shop for #s. They could go from book to book, without leaving the building, and every trip would take them past the pit and all those traps. My employers would go along with most everything I wanted or needed but they didnt dig or understand this idea. Couldnt blame them really. Oh well, those days are history and their are new ideas unfolding even as we speak. WE should ALL quit complaining about the new breed and figure out how to beat them. Thats more productive...Scotty
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Scott,
I have wondered about the two sportsbook's in the same casino for a long time. But now it is like Paul Harvey's radio show because now I know "The Rest of the Story".Comment
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Hmm, seems like a few posts from 10-1AM last night have mysteriously vanished from this thread.Comment
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SCOTTY,Originally posted by scott:
Reno...I couldnt agree more. Without scalpers/middlers I would have been in big doo doo. We encouraged wiseguy business but only for volume. I am not smart enough to beat them but with my scalpers around I didnt worry. We just held everyones money, paid the winners with the loosers money and kept the rest. Getting 'middled' was not a bad word for us. It was the price I paid for the life I chose as Michael Corleon said. Never did anybody say they just middled our book and they are keeping the money and quitting. Just the opposit. I did everything I could to keep every wiseguy, outfit, scalper & square close. I installed a phone room with free phones for them, gave them clipboards, calculators, access to all the information on the wires, fed them & gave them rooms, provided close parking and even threw a big dinner every year for them. All so they would give us their business. It was simply a huge grind joint, but it wouldnt work without my scalpers, bless their hearts...Scotty
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT AN OFF-SHORE BOOK TODAY HAS TO MAKE A DECISION.
WITH THE EXTREMELY HIGH COST OF DOING BUSINESS OFF-SHORE,AND THE HIGH COST OF MARKETING POST UP PLAYERS,HE MUST DECIDE TO KEEP HIS BUSINESS SQUARE AND NOT ALLOW NOT ONLY HIMSELF BUT HIS CUSTOMERS TO BE POACHED BY WISEGUY ACTION OR HE MUST DECIDE I'M GOING TO WRITE IT ALL.
IN YOUR ANALYSIS OF WHAT YOU DID IN THE STARDUST YOU HAD NO CHOICE TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY.
TO YOU THE SCALPERS, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY THE MIDDLERS ARE THE REASON YOU WERE ABLE TO SUSTAIN SO MANY CONSECUTIVE WINNING MONTHS.
THE PHILOSOPHY AND STRATEGY YOU USED IS THE BLUEPRINT FOR ANY LARGE CLEARING HOUSE SUCH AS OLYMPIC,GRANDE,AND C.R.I.S.
BEFORE THERE WAS A C.R.I.S.THERE WAS THE OFFICE THAT WAS THE CLEARING HOUSE FOR EVERY WISEGUY IN THE COUNTRY.
THERE WASN'T A RECREATIONAL PLAYER IN THE HOUSE.
IT IS HERE WHERE I LEARNED THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE BUSINESS.
IF I HAVE ABSORBED THE HIGH COST OF MARKETING OFF-SHORE PLAYERS I WILL NOT HAVE AN ORIGINATOR OR MOVER IN THE HOUSE.
WHY?
THEY ONLY PLAY ME WHEN THEY CAN FILL THEIR ORDERS.
WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DEAL AN INFLATED NUMBER TO MY REGULAR PLAYER WHO GIVES ME ALL HIS BUSINESS?
SO WHEN NUMBERS LAND THE WISGUYS GET PAID AND THE EVERYDAY PLAYER WHOSE WORK PAYS THE BILLS EITHER PUSHES OR LOSES?
THAT IS JUST A BAD BUSINESS DECISION.
IN REGARDS TO SCALPERS,THE SAME RULE APPLIES.
I'M NOT GOING TO LET A PRO WHO DOES NOTHING BUT SCALP MY NUMBER PLAY ME.
WHY?
BECAUSE HE RISKS NOTHING AND JUST CREATES ADDITIONAL EXPENSE TO SERVICE HIS WORK.
MORE IMPORTANTLY,HE WILL MOST LIKELY GET TO THE NUMBER FASTER THAN MY EVERYDAY PLAYER WHO I WANT TO SEE SCALP THE NUMBER,THUS ELIMINATING THE REGULAR PLAYER FROM COMPLETING THE SCALP.
I WANT MY EVERYDAY PLAYER TO SCALP ME LIKE SPRINGSTEEN TICKETS AT THE GARDEN BECAUSE HE DESERVES THIS CONSIDERATION.
THAT IS MY WAY OFF SAYING THANK YOU FOR YOUR BUSINESS.
WHEN I ANALYZE CUSTOMER BASES I HAVE SEEN JUST 10 TO 20 PLAYERS WHO ARE ORIGINATORS , MOVERS ,OR SCALPERS TAKE ANYWHERE FROM 20 TO 40% OFF THE BOTTOM LINE ANNUALLY.
AND I'M SPEAKING ABOUT IN HOUSES WHERE THERE ARE IN EXCESS OF 5,000 ACTIVE PLAYERS.
WHY WOULD ANY BUSINESS MAN LET ALONE BOOKMAKER ALLOW HIMSELF TO BE USED LIKE THIS?
ALL THIS POSTURING BY SCALPERS AND WANNABE BOOKMAKERS IS JUST PLAIN INSULTING NOT JUST TO THE BUSINESS OF BOOKMAKING BUT TO THE BUSINESS OF BUSINESS ITSELF.
IN A HOUSE LIKE C.R.I.S.,GRANDE AND OLYMPIC IT IS IMPERATIVE TO WRITE IT ALL IN THE HOPES OF OVERCOMING DECISIONS,THE EXPOSURE OF LINE MOVEMENT DUE TO POSTING LINES FIRST,AND THE WISEGUY ACTION WHICH YOU KNOW IS EXTREMELY TOUGH TO BEAT.
IT IS THIS CONSCIENCE DECISION THAT MAKES THESE PLACES THE CLEARING HOUSES THEY ARE.
JUST BECAUSE IT IS DONE THERE DOSEN'T MEAN IT IS THE CORRECT PHILOSOPHY FOR EVERYONE.
QUITE THE CONTRARY.
WHEN IN ROME DO AS THE ROMANS DO.
IF YOU HAVE A HOUSE FULL OF WISEGUYS IT IS IMPERATIVE TO WRITE AS MUCH ACTION AS YOU CAN TO GIVE YOURSELF A CHANCE TO WIN.
IF YOU HAVE A HOUSE FULL OF POST UP PLAYERS IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY BAD DECISION TO LET ORIGINATORS,MOVERS,OR PEOPLE WHO JUST PLAY YOU WHEN THEY CAN SCALP YOU TO RAPE YOUR BOTTOM LINE.
REALITY
[This message has been edited by REALITY (edited 07-15-2000).]Comment
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Reality,
What's your turnover of players like? How do you constantly replace the squares that go broke and can't play anymore? Are you saying you give certain players the privelege to scalp your numbers so you get the two way action? In other words give me so much in volume in square action and I will take so much buy back or scalp action. I assume anyone that beats you to the steam would not be one of your favorite guys. What are you limits like? Maybe you should be $500 or something and you wouldn't attract the big boys anyway.Comment
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REALITY,
Absolutely great post! Truer words were never spoken(OR YELLED).
RichRich RosenthalComment
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BUCKY,
I TOOK A BIG BET IN ONE OF THE MAJOR OFF-SHORE BOOKS.
WISEGUYS WERE NOT WELCOMED.
LET'S UNDERSTAND WHAT THE TERM WISEGUY MEANS TO ME.
A WISEGUY IS AN ORIGINATOR OR MOVER FOR AN ORIGINATOR WHO ONLY PLAYS YOU WHEN HE CAN BEAT THE SCREEN.
I IDENTIFIED THEM AS SUCH,TIPPED MY HAT TO THEM AND GAVE THEM A FREE PAYOUT.
THEY ALWAYS GOT PAID,I JUST WARNED THEM THE SECOND TIME I CAUGHT THEM I'D HOLD UP THEIR PAYOUT A MONTH AND ADD A MONTH EACH SUBSEQUENT TIME THEY GOT CAUGHT.
I NEVER HELD UP ANYONES PAYOUT FOR MORE THAN A MONTH.
I KNOW MOST OF THEM BECAUSE I USED TO MOVE FOR MANY OF THEM.
I HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT OF SO MANY PLACES MY ASS STILL HURTS.
THE JOB OF A WISEGUY IS TO INFILTRATE WEAK BOOKS.
THAT IS THEIR JOB AND I RESPECT IT.
THE JOB OF A SITTING BM IS TO IDENTIFY THEM AND DEAL WITH THEM ACCORDING TO THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE SHOP.
IF I'M SITTING IN A SHOP WHERE THE OWNER TELLS ME NO WISEGUY ACTION.
THERE WILL BE NO WISEGUY ACTION!
IF THE OWNER SAYS WRITE IT ALL.
I WILL WRITE IT ALL!
I DO BOTH JOBS WELL,AND IF THE TRUTH BE KNOWN IT IS EASIER JOB TO JUST WRITE IT ALL BECAUSE I DON'T CONSTANTLY HAVE TO BE REVIEWING ACCOUNTS TO SEE WHO IS BEATING THE MOVE IN.
REALITY
[This message has been edited by REALITY (edited 07-15-2000).]Comment
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CHILLIN,Originally posted by Chillin-the-Most:
REALITY,
Absolutely great post! Truer words were never spoken(OR YELLED).
Rich
I AIN'T YELLIN'.
I'M KEYBOARD IMPAIRED...
IF I TYPED IT IN ALL LOWER CASE I'D NEVER POST BECAUSE THE POST WOULD LOOK LIKE IT LACKED THE CONVICTION OF THE POSTER...
REALITY
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Reality,
I agree the boss has the right to run the business with the philosophy he sees fit.
Myself, I have never been kicked out of a sportsbook offshore or in Vegas or anywhere. But it seems to me each of the prospective players to the type of book ran by your boss should be advised not only of the rules but the decorum expected of the players by the marketing department at sign up time. Advise them ahead of time and if it's offshore have them sign a statement acknowledgeing what things might constitute their being asked to leave.
However, the player should be treated the same win or lose, not just if he won on the buyback. If he lost 10 dimes buying back on three games did he still get asked to leave? And couldn't the system keep track of how many steam games a player bought back on and the game could have been circled and the ticket wouldn't have to be even written? Did you have many bonus rhubarbs(you signed up and bought back so now you are out of here with no bonus in your payout). Perhaps, there would be less hard feelings that way if the philsophy of the book was spelled out right there in the brochure so everybody could see it and read it.
The book has the right to hang a number a nickel less than everybody else so they won't get bought back. But I suppose even their own squares won't take it then and they are sitting there onesided.
It seems to me the players have a right to know ahead of time of the book's philosophy.
What's wrong with putting a sign on the front door, "Wiseguys will be asked to leave!"
[This message has been edited by bucky (edited 07-15-2000).]
[This message has been edited by bucky (edited 07-15-2000).]Comment
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I agree with Chillin.....
Great explanation of two very different approaches. This is by far the best explanation ever given on this topic.
As I've mentioned before, one of the most interesting things to me, in talking with different shops, is hearing their approach.
It's either one od the other, with the "kick out wiseguy" approach being the approach the majority use.
While I don't like that approach from a players standpoint, I do understand it and can't say I wouldn't do that myself if I ran a shop.Comment
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BUCKY,Originally posted by bucky:
Reality,
I agree the boss has the right to run the business with the philosophy he sees fit.
Myself, I have never been kicked out of a sportsbook offshore or in Vegas or anywhere. But it seems to me each of the prospective players to the type of book ran by your boss should be advised not only of the rules but the decorum expected of the players by the marketing department at sign up time. Advise them ahead of time and if it's offshore have them sign a statement acknowledgeing what things might constitute their being asked to leave.
However, the player should be asked to leave win or lose. Not just if he won on the buyback. Did you have many bonus rhubarbs? Perhaps, there would be less hard feelings that way if the philsophy of the book was spelled out right there in the brochure so everybody could see it and read it.
WHEREVER I SAT IN THE BOX,CUSTOMER SERVICE WAS ADVISED TO SEND ANY PLAYER POSTING OVER $5,000 TO ME BEFORE AN ACCOUNT WAS OPENED.
I SPOKE WITH THE PROSPECTIVE PLAYER AND ADVISED HIM ACCORDINGLY OF THE HOUSE POLICY.
IF SOME PLAYER SLIPPED THROUGH THE CRACKS I WOULD TELL HIM I TIP MY HAT TO YOU SIR PLEASE ACCEPT A FREE PAYOUT COURTESY OF ME VIA FED-EX.
THERE IS NO HARD FEELINGS HERE.
THE PLAYER IS DOING HIS JOB.
THE BM IS DOING HIS JOB.
LET ME SEE IF MY HUMOR IS ACCEPTED ANY BETTER HERE TODAY.
TO QUOTE A FAMOUS LINE FROM THE GODFATHER.
IT'S BUSINESS,
JUST BUSINESS,NOTHING PERSONAL...
REALITY
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Reality, I have a couple of questions.
1)Is the term Wiseguy and winner 2 different things. In other words if a player wins 70 of 100 games every year with you, but plays his own games, plays them early, so you have time to react to his action, do you consider him a wiseguy? Would you ban him or capitalize on him, if the boss did not want wiseguys? Also would you lower and by how much would you lower his limits. This guy can beat you for more than any scalper will, but you can use him to your advantage. Based off your definition of wiseguy, there is a clear distinction between wiseguy and winner. Do books that boot, treat them the same?
2) I think you believe that the proper stance for everyone is to take ALL action. I realize it is the bosses decision, but as one who consults, do you consult to boot the wiseguys or welcome the wiseguys.
3) How many shops would you consider Wiseguys welcome shops and who are they.Comment
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THE THREE BIGGEST WISEGUY CLEARING HOUSES ARE C.R.I.S.,OLYPIC AND GRANDE.Originally posted by SLAM DUNK:
Reality, I have a couple of questions.
1)Is the term Wiseguy and winner 2 different things. In other words if a player wins 70 of 100 games every year with you, but plays his own games, plays them early, so you have time to react to his action, do you consider him a wiseguy? Would you ban him or capitalize on him, if the boss did not want wiseguys? Also would you lower and by how much would you lower his limits. This guy can beat you for more than any scalper will, but you can use him to your advantage. Based off your definition of wiseguy, there is a clear distinction between wiseguy and winner. Do books that boot, treat them the same?
I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF HERE.
I DON'T BOOT WINNERS.
A SCALPER IS NOT A WINNER HE IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO RISKS NOTHING AND CAN ONLY EARN AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BOOK IN A POST-UP HOUSE.
HE IS ACCEPTED AT A CLEARING HOUSE OPERATION BECAUSE HE IS A NECESSARY EVIL.
A MIDDLER IS WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS IN BOTH POST UP AND CLEARING HOUSES BECAUSE HE PUTS UP 11/10 TO PLAY THE GAME AND HE REPRESENTS AN EARN IN BOTH PLACES.
IF I AM SITTING WHERE WISEGUYS ARE NOT WELCOME.
A WISEGUY IS ANYONE WHO JUST PLAYS ME WITH STEAM WHEN HE CAN BEAT THE MOVE IN.
IN OTHERWORDS HE PLAYS ME AND 30-60 SECONDS LATER THE SCREEN TURNS BLACK ON THE SIDE AND GAME HE PLAYED.
THAT IS THE ONLY WISEGUY TO ME.
2) I think you believe that the proper stance for everyone is to take ALL action. I realize it is the bosses decision, but as one who consults, do you consult to boot the wiseguys or welcome the wiseguys.
IF THE BUSINESS IS PREDOMINANTLY POST UP AND IS BEING VICTIMIZED BY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF WISEGUY ACTION I ADVISE TO CLOSE THERE ACOOUNTS AND PAY THEM OFF AS THEY REQUEST THEIR PAYOUTS.
IF IT IS AT LEAST 50% SHARP ACTION AT THAT POINT YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO WRITE IT ALL!
3) How many shops would you consider Wiseguys welcome shops and who are they.
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I could understand if you had a player that always played games that were just about to be steamed, beating you to the moves. But what about a smart player who shops for the best line, and whose plays line up with the moves that will happen later (over the course of the day) maybe 60% of the time?
This is where I always have trouble - where do you draw the line? Some books have definitely taken this too far, kicking out players who have happened to win over a very short time frame, on games that were not steam.
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SPORTSHOBBY,
I DONNOT BOOT OUT WINNERS.
MY DEFINITION OF A WISEGUY IS JUST THAT A WISEGUY.
IF YOU ONLY PLAY ME THE GAMES THAT 30-60 SECONDS AFTER YOU PLAY ME GO BLACK,YOU ARE EITHER THE ORIGINATOR OR A MOVER FOR THE ORIGINATOR AND AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED YOU AND YOU ALONE ARE THE ONLY TYPE PLAYER I REFER TO AS A WISEGUY.
THIS IS THE ONLY TYPE OF PLAYER AND A PLAYER WHO ONLY SCALPS BASEBALL WITH ME WHO I WILL ASK TO LEAVE IN A POST UP SHOP.
IF I AM IN A SHOP WHERE THE PRINCIPALS SAY NO WISEGUY ACTION.
THERE WILL BE NO WISEGUY ACTION.
IF I AM IN A SHOP WHERE THEY SAY WRITE IT ALL.
I'LL WRITE IT ALL.
THE LAST SHOP I WORKED IN THERE WAS A PLAYER WHO PLAYED ME LIKE A PIANO AND BEAT ME LIKE A DRUM WITH ALL OFF GAMES.
MANY TIMES I NEEDED THE SAME SIDE AS HIM.
I JUST KEPT TIPPING MY HAT AND PAYING HIM,
I WAS IN THE MIDST OF A PHENOMENAL SEASON.
MY POSITION REGARDING SCALPERS IS POSTED ABOVE.
REALITYComment
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