The end of an era: Is Scalping Gone Forever?

[DoggieStyle]

REALITY

100 per cent wrong again.

THE STARDUST when SCOTTY was the manager opened the lines to the World every day. Are you telling everyone in here that SCOTTY had a choice what he wanted to do! Give him some credit. SCOTTY could not have BOOKED TO ONLY LOSERS LIKE THESE GREAT NEW OFF-SHORE BOOKS CAN. He did the RIGHT thing and opened up to EVERYONE every morning with a lottery. I would bet that if SCOTTY was still the manager of the STARDUST today he let everyone bet there if he could still do it.

I will give all their managers credit for never taking the easy way out. They knew what they had to do and did it pretty good. They accepted that this business is tough and had no problem BOOKING EVERYBODY! I spent close to 4 years betting everyday at the Stardust and we would LOSE their week after week. They must have been doing something right.

Also if the bottom line FOR YOU is that the WISEGUYS take 10 to 20 per cent of your profits every year then you aren't that good. Plus the WISEGUYS can be beat and the BETTER BOOKIES will beat them and the OTHERS will not. Do you really think they beat every book? That's weak.....

[Chillin-the-Most]

DoggieStyle,
Do you really believe that Vegas takes action from Wise Guys?
I am talking about present day not yesteryear.

[thedevil]

Doggie,

I don't think reality is wrong... The days Scotty was talking about are long gone.. All the action came into the windows not over the phones. There was no shot of double and triple hits. Don Best was either just starting or didn't exist the way it operates today. Besides the amount of talented players was a miniscule amount compared to today..

I know the way you like to book and that's fine for you, take on everyone write big volume and a smaller win percentage. I like the opposite take the guys with one or two outs give them whatever they want and if your loaded on a game and want to give some away have a few scalpers that I can call and see if they want a play..If I write a smaller volume so what, I rather have a larger win percentage and hope to keep the little guy in action longer.

THE DEVIL

[reno]

It is amazing to me that anyone would want to run a sportsbook that boots wiseguys. That type of bookmaking philosophy is utterly anathematic to my whole life-orientation. It represents an exclusive-reductive approach to life that mirrors, to my mind, the root problem of human existence: the contraction of consciousness and life-energy. In other words, it is an approach based on involution rather than evolution (or expansion).

More to the point, it is symptomatic of fear, ignorance, and incompetence. Because I am a true wiseguy, superior in sportsbetting knowledge to those of Reality's ilk, his bookmaking philosophy, from my perspective, is a complete joke, a parody of true professionalism.

For example, Reality considers his self-imposed ignorance regarding sports teams to be a virtue. I consider it to be a vice. Case in point: today's Seattle/San Diego baseball game. Because I intuited the appropriate betting line this morning to be
-140, I layed 5 dimes this morning at -120 before the line moved. Now, as I write this, the line is as high as Seattle -137. If I were a BM, in order to achieve a semblance of balance action, I would have opened Seattle at -132. Because a BM like Reality is incapable of opinionating his numbers, he'd have undoubtedly ended up with far more action on Seattle than on San Diego. Consequently, unlike yours truly, he wouldn't come close to achieving the bookmaking ideal of balanced action.

The "Ladder Principle" of bookmaking is common knowledge; and it is far from rocket science. Anyone who knows Junior High math can implement it. Therefore, my question to you, Reality, is this: If you know next to nothing about players and teams and don't opinionate numbers, what more do you bring to the BM table other than moving numbers according to the industry-standard Ladder Principle?

[REALITY]

Originally posted by DoggieStyle:
REALITY

100 per cent wrong again.

THE STARDUST when SCOTTY was the manager opened the lines to the World every day. Are you telling everyone in here that SCOTTY had a choice what he wanted to do! Give him some credit. SCOTTY could not have BOOKED TO ONLY LOSERS LIKE THESE GREAT NEW OFF-SHORE BOOKS CAN. He did the RIGHT thing and opened up to EVERYONE every morning with a lottery. I would bet that if SCOTTY was still the manager of the STARDUST today he let everyone bet there if he could still do it.

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO SCOTTY HE CONSULTED WHOEVER IT WAS THAT PROVIDED HIM WITH OPENING NUMBERS.

HE TOOK AT LOOK AT THIS INFORMATION AND USED HIS EXPERTISE TO POST OPENERS IN A LOTTERY OF SHARP SHOOTERS FOR WHAT I GUESS WAS A TOKEN OR HALF LIMIT BET.

AFTER THIS LINE WAS IRONED OUT,YOU COULD HAVE OFFERED THEM TO THE GUY FROM EARLY EDITION.

WITH THE IRONED OUT NUMBERS, HE THEN APPLIED HIS EXPERTISE TO MOVE THE LINE AS DICTATED BY THE PLAY.

I WOULD SUSPECT FROM HIS RESPECT FOR THE TALENT THAT HE WOULD AGREE HIS FORTE WAS HIS MANAGEMENT OF THE LINE.

THAT'S A BOOKMAKERS JOB.

IT'S THE ODDSMAKERS JOB TO COME UP WITH AN ARBRITRARY NUMBER THAT THEY FEEL WOULD DRAW AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF ACTION ON BOTH SIDES,NOT REFLECT WHO THEY BELIEVE THE WINNER WILL BE.

I will give all their managers credit for never taking the easy way out. They knew what they had to do and did it pretty good. They accepted that this business is tough and had no problem BOOKING EVERYBODY! I spent close to 4 years betting everyday at the Stardust and we would LOSE their week after week. They must have been doing something right.

IF YOU ARE IN A CLEARING HOUSE FOR SHARP WORK THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO GIVE YOUR SELF A CHANCE.

YOU MUST ISOLATE AND IDENTIFY THE WINNERS IN THE HOUSE.

IN EFFECT THEY ARE THE SAME AS SCOTTY'S LOTTERY.

YOU TELL THEM THEY ARE INVITED TO CRACK YOUR NUMBERS 15 TO 30 MINUTES BEFORE YOU OPEN.

YOU GIVE THEM A TOKEN OR HALF LIMIT BET.

AFTER THEY GET THROUGH IRONING OUT YOUR NUMBERS, IF YOU WERE ASTUTE ENOUGH TO IDENTIFY THE REAL TALENT BETTING YOU,YOU SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM BOOKING FROM THERE IF YOU ARE A STRONG TECHNICAL B.M.WITH STRONG FUNDAMENTAL SKILLS

Also if the bottom line FOR YOU is that the WISEGUYS take 10 to 20 per cent of your profits every year then you aren't that good. Plus the WISEGUYS can be beat and the BETTER BOOKIES will beat them and the OTHERS will not. Do you really think they beat every book? That's weak.....

YOU KNOW THE CREW YOU WORKED FOR IN THE ISLAND.

YOU KNOW THE PUZZLE GUY,THEY SENT EVERYBODY INTO EVERYBODY.

IT WAS GENERALLY ACCEPTED THAT YOU WOULD PAY THAT PACKAGE OF PLAYERS 40 WEEKS OUT OF THE YEAR.

HOW STRONG WERE THEY?

I TOOK THE TOP 20 PLAYERS AND STOOD IN A ROOM AND PUT THEM ON FOR A TOKEN BET.

AS SOON AS THEY BET I WENT OUT AND MOVED THEIR PLAY INTO 6-8 SMALL BOOKS I HAD.

I MADE A LIVING OUT OF THIS UNTIL I ULTIMATELY RAN OUT OF OUTS AND DESPITE EATING SOME PAPER I STILL DID WELL.

REALITY

[sportshobby]

Reno, I think I agree with you. Let me say it another way, trying not to be personally offensive against Reality.

It seems to me that a true bookmaker is not really needed at this kind of shop (one that boots wiseguys and takes pride in putting no opinion into the lines). I really believe a simple computer program that moves the lines is all that is required in such a sportsbook.

A true bookmaker, with all his talents, is only required for booking all action (especially sharp) and for inserting opinion into a line.

[reno]

Reality, I just re-read your above post, and according to your definition of a wiseguy, I never qualified according my betting pattern at your sportsbook. I NEVER bet steam games at your joint. And yet, I was booted. In other words, you not only booted wiseguys, you also booted non-wiseguys!

[thedevil]

Reno,

It's hard to argue when you are so stedfast in your opinions...There's a big difference between a gambler and a businessman..

You've posted a few times about how astute you are with you numbers.. You've given a few examples about the times your right.. I've yet to see an example of when you have been wrong..

Sure today you would have been right on the Seattle number. But what do you do if your wrong.. You want to open it at -132 when the world is at -120.. How much are you going to take at +122 THEN WHERE ARE YOU GOING. what do you do later when you have a fist full of dollars on the dog and the Pokers come in on the dog.. Some of the things your saying have merit but you forte is betting not booking..If your booking with your money then you can opinonate the lines. If you want to be 12-15c off Don Best and have your butt flapping in the breeze you better get hot in a hurry or you'll be on the Bowery before your pants hit your ankles.

THE DEVIL

[reno]

Devil, I know the Pokers M.O. My scalping strategy is different when the Pokers play. If they're playing, I get off some of my leads by 3:15 PM. I don't like getting whipsawed if they go the other way. If I were booking and the Pokers were playing, I'd do what no other book does: I'd adjust many of my betting lines in anticipation of their plays. I actually enjoy scalping much more without the Pokers around to create insane line chaos. They interfere with the art of scalping and attract hordes of one-dimensional "steam chasers" to the marketplace.

[REALITY]

RENO,
WHAT RENO THE GREAT SPIN MASTER IS REALLY SAYING IS PLEASE ANY BOOKMAKERS OR SPORTSBOOK OWNERS READING THIS KINDLY DISREGARD REALITY'S GUIDE TO MAXIMIUM PROFIT IN THE OFF-SHORE INDUSTRY.

NEVER MOVE ON AIR AND MAKE SURE THE ORIGINAL NUMBER RENO IS LOOKING FOR IS AVAILABLE AFTER THE MOVE ON DON BEST IS CONFIRMED.

BECAUSE IF YOU MOVE ON AIR THE REQUIRED ORIGINAL BET NECESSARY TO MAKE THE SCALP WON'T BE THERE FOR RENO TO MAKE.

THE ORIGINAL PRICE IS WHAT'S HARD TO FIND.

THE OTHER SIDE IS LIKE TAKING CANDY FROM A BABY!

THEN RENO GOES TO THE CLONE JOINT MOVE ON AIR GUYS HE PURPORTS TO DETEST, WHEN IN FACT HE LOVES THEM ALMOST AS MUCH AS THE POOR SUCKER HE CATCHES WITH THE ORIGINAL MOVE.

WHY?

SIMPLE.

THE $10 AN HOUR CLERK NOT ONLY MOVED ON AIR HE OVERMOVED A COUPLE OF EXTRA CENTS JUST TO BE ON THE SAFE SIDE.

THEN THE LUNATIC FOLLOWERS WHO LAY ANYTHING BECAUSE THEY JUST HAVE TO WIN THE GAME, FORCE THE PRICE UP A LITTLE HIGHER AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS.

THE GREAT RENO,THE BOOKMAKERS SELF-PROCLAIMED GUARDIAN ANGEL COMES IN AND TAKES FULL ADVANTAGE OF A POOR SLOB WHO DOSEN'T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT HOW TO MOVE A LINE.

AND BELIEVE ME IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE TIME YOU CAN FIND PLENTY OF THESE BOOKS AROUND.

TWO THINGS RENO.

YOU JUST KEEP OPENING THOSE INTERNET PAGES ON YOUR COMPUTER.

YOU KNOW THE ONES WHERE THE LINE IS GOOD FOR 5 MINUTES AFTER THE MOVE IS IN THE STREET.

THAT'S COMING TO AN END.

MAYBE YOU CAN BE SECOND HAND TO BOOMER AND HELP HIM FLIP THE BURGERS.

FINALLY KEEP BLOWING SMOKE ABOUT WHO THE TRUE BOOKMAKERS ARE.

YOU KNOW WHO I'M TALKING ABOUT.

RENO YOU ARE ONE OF THE GREAT CON MAN OF OUR TIME.

YOU SHOULD BE SELLING CARS OR INSURANCE.

I DON'T KNOW WHY I EVEN GIVE YOUR REMARKS THE COURTESY OF A RESPONSE.

I'LL DO LIKE YOU.

I'LL IGNORE WHAT I DON'T LIKE.

YOU ARE THE JOKE PAL,NOT ME.

YOU SHOWED YOUR TRUE COLORS WHEN YOU DIDN'T ACCEPT THE RENO/REALITY 10 DIME CHALLENGE.

HELL,YOU WEREN'T EVEN MAN ENOUGH TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT,LET ALONE ACCEPT IT.

AND WE BOTH KNOW WHY YOU DIDN'T ACCEPT IT.

DONT WE....

REALITY

[REALITY]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by reno:


The "Ladder Principle" of bookmaking is common knowledge; and it is far from rocket science. Anyone who knows Junior High math can implement it. Therefore, my question to you, Reality, is this: If you know next to nothing about players and teams and don't opinionate numbers, what more do you bring to the BM table other than moving numbers according to the industry-standard Ladder Principle?

I WIN!

AND IF YOU HAD ENOUGH BALLS TO POST UP THAT $10,000 YOU WOULD KNOW JUST HOW MUCH!

[sportshobby]

I suppose that moving on air might take some talent, but I doubt that too. I think I could watch the Don Best screen and come up with a good adjusted line that accounts for the move, but doesn't go as far as the extremes who are looking for buyback.

But starting with a clone line and moving on action must be bookmaking 101, and could surely be programmed in a few minutes.

Reality, I know I'm probably insulting you but it is not intentional. I really want to know what decisions are left for a bookermakerin such a shop (one that doesn't book to wiseguys, doesn't put any opinion in the lines, etc). Can't these type of books really get away without a bookmaker?

[REALITY]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sportshobby:


A true bookmaker, with all his talents, is only required for booking all action (especially sharp) and for inserting opinion into a line.]

SPORTSHOBBY,
ONCE YOU PUT THE WORD OPINION AND BOOKMAKING IN THE SAME SENTENCE,YOU ARE NO LONGER BOOKMAKING.

YOU ARE GAMBLING WITH AN EDGE.

IT IS THE JOB OF ODDSMAKERS TO FURNISH BOOKMAKERS WITH OPENING NUMBERS.

IT IS THE BOOKMAKERS JOB TO REVIEW THOSE NUMBERS AND POST THE STRONGEST LINE HE CAN.

ONCE POSTED IT IS THE B.M.'S JOB TO MANAGE THE LINE IN RELATION TO HOW HE IS BET.

IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS IT THE BOOKMAKERS JOB TO ATTEMPT TO OUTGUESS THE TALENT.

THAT IS A FORMULA FOR BANKRUPTCY.

REALITY

[sportshobby]

But once the numbers are opened, aren't the moves just based on amount of action?

If not, isn't the BM back in the position of guessing the future direction of the line, and hence gambling?

[REALITY]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sportshobby:
.

Reality, I know I'm probably insulting you but it is not intentional. I really want to know what decisions are left for a bookermakerin such a shop (one that doesn't book to wiseguys, doesn't put any opinion in the lines, etc). Can't these type of books really get away without a bookmaker?

SPORTSHOBBY,
YOUR NOT INSULTING ME,BUT YOUR NOT GRASPING THE PHILOSOPHY EITHER.

IF YOU READ THE ABOVE POSTS ,I HAVE GIVEN A BRIEF OUTLINE HOW TO BOOK EITHER A POST UP SHOP OR A CLEARING HOUSE SHOP.

BOTH REQUIRE A PROFESSIONAL TO POST A STRONG LINE AND MANAGE IT'S MOVEMENT AFTER BEING BET.

A PROFESSIONAL WHO CAN DISTINGUISH BETWEEN A PLAYER ON A HOT STREAK AND A WISEGUY WHO IS JUST TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE HOLES IN A WEAK LINE.

TRUE BOOKMAKING IS AN ART WITH MANY SUBTLETIES.

ON A FOOTBALL SATURDAY OR SUNDAY WHEN YOU HAVE EVERY GAME AND TOTAL WITHIN A COUPLE OF DIMES OF EACH OTHER.

THAT IS THE ART AND BEAUTY OF BOOKMAKING.

WHEN YOU HAVE TWO SIDED ACTION ON EVERY GAME WITH MINIMAL LINE MOVEMENT AND EXPOSURE AND AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU TAKE DOWN 20-30% OF THE HANDLE BECAUSE OF HOOK UPS AND TEASER ACTION.

THAT IS THE BEAUTY AND ART OF BOOKMAKING.

REALITY