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The end of an era: Is Scalping Gone Forever?

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  • #61
    Reno,

    I believe your very sharp and very good at what you do. However if we're to exchange ideas in a forum such as this, when one asks a few questions the other party shoud try to address those points. By being evasive and saying that you know the Pokers M.O. you make it sound like no one else can figure out what you did..If you ask a question of me I'll try to answer to the best of my ability, why I agree or disagree but I will try to give an answer. I would like to know what you would do if the scenerio I asked happened. How much would you book at +122 and what would you do if the game went against you. How much would you book if the game went your way.. How much of a decision would you hold.

    You see I'm very flexable on this issue.I do believe there are books that want wiseguy action and those that don't. Saying a book isn't a good book because they don't want wiseguy business is bunk.

    Maybe you've never seen what a real good streak by the Koshers can do. Believe me when I tell you the Pokers will never have the kind of run that the koshers had about 8 years ago. I had guys taking +10 on games that they took +90 on. The followers are a very strong betting interest..Some of the books that are in operation now got slaughtered then and don't want it to happen again. Are they wrong for not wanting that type of business.. There are plenty of guys that will lay 30 on a game after the Pokers lay 10. Which do you want to book.

    THE DEVIL

    Comment


    • #62
      [QUOTE]Originally posted by sportshobby:
      [B]But once the numbers are opened, aren't the moves just based on amount of action?

      IT DEPENDS WHICH TYPE OF HOUSE YOUR IN.

      SAY YOU ARE IN A POST UP BOOK WHERE THEY ARE LAYING -10 AND NOTHING IS STOPPING THEM.

      A CREW HAS JUST COME IN AND WIPED OUT THE + 10.

      ARE YOU GOING TO MOVE TO 10.5 BECAUSE OF YOUR MONEY?

      OF COURSE NOT.

      EACH SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.

      If not, isn't the BM back in the position of guessing the future direction of the line, and hence gambling?

      EACH SITUATION DICTATES IT'S OWN SOLUTION AND A TRUE PRO KNOWS HOW TO HANDLE ANY EVENTUALITY...

      REALITY

      Comment


      • #63
        Chillin-the-Most,

        Yes! Las Vegas still takes wiseguy action. Many posters here have phone accounts. You just can't have runners sitting in a book all day anymore.

        The Devil,

        The Stardust did have phone accounts and every now and then did get double hit. That is not an issue.

        The problem the Stardust had that YOU or most illegal bookies didn't was this. They DIDN'T know who was betting most of the moves till later. Who's ever runner was closer to the counter when the play came in got the play. Most illegal books will take the play from the Originator himself. They knew if it was a real play or not. The Stardust like any Good bookie did not panic because they have to move their numbers off MONEY!

        Also do you guys think CRIS or CRIBI or DEL MAR or OLYMPIC have a choice. What do you think would happen if they started this pathetic way of thinking. Really! All these LOSER ONLY BOOKS should send the real books a big thank you card. Real big! After all somebody has to take these plays that move the lines!

        I happen to think all these books are making a huge mistake being on one line service together. Seriously! What an advantage this is to a WISEGUY or any player for that matter. If The Devil remembers we agreed to get kicked off DON BEST when we were in Margarita. It cost us alot of MONEY.

        We got so tired of people following us, We had no choice. A game would be 5 everywhere so we would go down to 4 and then everyone else would to 4 or 4.5. Then you would see 3.5 starting to show up as some books would move it because it WAS the right move.

        We would just deal the change to customers that called. Leaving the number on the screen like everyone else. It worked, but Al of DON BEST would go nuts. But Al also saw the problem we were having. He did know this business. And there was nothing Al or US could do about it. We had to go....

        The books move their numbers more than they should because of the Screen. You now have 20 other books you have to compete with for bets. It was retarded and I don't understand the thinking on the books part besides the ego thing. These big books don't get it.

        THEY WOULD HAVE A HUGE ADVANTAGE OVER WISEGUYS IF THEY DIDN'T ADVERTISE THEIR LINES. THE WISEGUYS WOULD NEED TO EITHER CALL THE BOOKS OR GO TO THEIR WEB SITES TO GET THEIR ODDS. SLOWING THEM DOWN!!!!! IT WOULD MAKE IT HARD FOR THE MIDDLER/WISEGUY/PLAYER TO FIND THE BEST NUMBER. Again this service lets these books get picked apart by anyone who uses it.

        It's for the PLAYERS and the books who are on this are losing money because of it. I think it's funny they can't see it. But it's not my problem.

        I know the REAL WISEGUYS would love this also. You know why? They would eat alive the NON-BOOKIES who couldn't just copy these books who are taking the REAL ACTION. These copy cat books would have to BOOK and most would get eaten alive. Again good for the REAL BOOKS because the sucker players these NON-BOOKIE places have would then have to play with the big boys (THEY WOULD HAVE TO PLAY WITH THE REAL BOOKIES)

        Why should REAL BOOKS take the plays from the So-Called Wiseguys so everyone else can just copy the move? When the Wiseguys get real hot these offices take the beatings. BUT SOMEBODY HAS TO TAKE THESE PLAYS.

        Scotty can you answer a question for me? When DON BEST first started or even before that, You had people calling the LINE SERVICES all the changes you guys made. I have a feeling you didn't like this. I think you wanted people to BET. You didn't mind if they used the phones as long as they were betting. Right?

        Now what was the reason behind this? Was it because you were taking plays from all the WISEGUYS and felt others should also and not just copy your line? Did it bother you or didn't it.

        I think you accepted it because of the Marketing end of it. It probably got you guys more business.

        P.S. The Devil how soon you forget. How many times did I move a Hockey game before post so a wiseguy would bet it and give us a decision. WE KILLED THEM IN HOCKEY. We also did this in every other sport there was. I NEVER used a WISEGUY to get two way action! We always wanted the decisions. We used them to get decisions! RIGHT or WRONG.

        Now I'm not talking about the other guys. The other guys couldn't get it together for some reason.

        There was no grinding it out...NEVER...

        Comment


        • #64
          Reality, it is amazing how easily you denigrate my lead-taking ability. I took most of my leads today BEFORE there was any line movement to speak of. And without the Pokers, there is no real steam. Whereas one-dimensional steam-chasers like Boomer are now on the sidelines, I'm still doing exceptionally well. And I currently do very little at books off the Don Best feed. In other words, I'm playing with the big boys who APPRECIATE my play. For example, talk to Lance at Skybook, Jack at Belize, Billy or Chuck at Loose Lines, Roger at WWTS, or Charlie or J.R. at Sports Market. These guys hang a number and I take it. And if I don't take the number, someone else will. But apparently, that concept is beyond your limited grasp. And some of the opening numbers I bet into are not weak. Places like
          Belize and WWTS have already been hit by big Asian money, and are just trying to balance their books with different opening numbers. I have no monopoly on any book's numbers. Anyone can do what I do, and I do get beaten for plenty of numbers everyday.

          But, hey, because I'm such a nice guy, I'll give you an opportunity to show us how much you really know about booking. Respond to the following: CRIS and Caribi use the Variable Proposition Method to move their baseball totals. Most other books use the Constant Proposition Method. Which method do you prefer, and why? In other words, what is your mathematical rationale for choosing one method over the other?

          Comment


          • #65
            RENO,
            WHEN YOU GO BACK AND ANSWER THE 100 OR SO POSTS OF MINE YOU NEVER ANSWERED,I'LL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ENTERTAIN YOUR QUESTIONS.

            REALITY

            Comment


            • #66
              Doggie,

              No, I didn't forget. But if you look back who took down all the cash. Was it the bookie or the other guys with the commission sheets. Maybe it was the gambling partner. The guys with the cash wanted to earn their comissions not book them. Think about it, they were almost in a no lose situation. Take out their commissions and what were they booking. You know as well as I even though it's never been said on this forum before that joint was a monster bigger than Cris volume wise. I still remember a 180 dime play on a prop. This is just a matter of who wants to book how. Maybe if I had a hundred mill and all postup business I would want to take a shot on beating these guys or working a big juice shop. There's a guy that's away that was the best for a while taking 50's from the Koshers after they got hot he couldn't get the other side now he's got very little. Maybe when I was your age I liked volatility, not any more.

              DEVIL

              Comment


              • #67
                Devil, if I were booking and the Pokers were playing, I'd re-adjust some of my betting lines at 3:15 PM, right before they started playing. And the adjustments would be based on my knowledge of the type of games they are more likely to play. Regarding opinionating the opening line, If I made Seattle -132 in the morning, and the players, contrary to my opinion, liked the dog, I'd simply book the game from my number just like any other game. To me it's just one game. And I know that, overall, I'd be right far more than I'm wrong. When I take leads, it's not uncommon for me to guess wrong and end up with negative scalps. but because I'm right a lot more than I'm wrong, I come out way ahead. Regarding booking the Pokers, I'd always take the limit bet from the first guy, and I'd then decide how much to the move the game based on how heavy the recent bandwagoning had been. Obviously, if the Pokers are losing like this season, and the bandwagoning is moderate, I'd move the game like any other game. However, if they're hot with a huge following, or if I like the play, I'd move the game more aggressively, like Skybook or Sports Market do.

                I have never booked, so none of the above is cut in stone. But it is the mindset that I would initially approach bookmaking with.

                Comment


                • #68
                  The late Reds Cohan(DC) told me a few years back that true bookmakers are going the way of the wolf(extinct). He lamented that the majority of new breed BMs are hustlers and gamblers with an edge(similar to Reality's quote).

                  Like him or leave him, Reality is a true old school BM with modern day savy.

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                  • #69
                    RONBETS,
                    I SINCERELY THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT.

                    REALITY

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Reality- In an earlier post you talked about classic bookmaking versus gambling with an edge. How would you classify your freind Spiro's style?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Ronbets whats this love affair with Reality?

                        What in this post has he even said? That you can hire a 13 year old to watch Don Best all day. If anyone is sharper than the 13 year old and will take advantage of him they will be asked to not play with them anymore. HELLO....

                        We all know this. This isn't new. Is it right? Is it wrong?

                        It all comes down to this:

                        REAL BOOKIES open everyday and try to the best of their ability to make money. They don't open with the pathetic WISEGUYS ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME ATTITUDE. Every thing goes except bad lines or blantent things like past posting.

                        NON-BOOKIE is allowed to use DON BEST to help them. Right? They move their lines off DON BEST. Right? Most could not open without DON BEST. The difference is NON-BOOKIE acts like you are a THIEF/SCUM/MIDDLER/SCALPER/WISEGUY/FOLLOWER/BEARD/ if you The PLAYER uses DON BEST. It's downright simple. That's what this whole thing is based on. DON BEST LINE SERVICE.

                        To all of those who agree the NON-BOOKIE should be allowed to throw out customers who use DON BEST, For the EXACT same reason the NON-BOOKIE themselves uses it must not be competitive people. You must be the people who just want other people to give you money without earning it. A new race of people who never question anything. They just follow..

                        Again without using DON BEST these little fish (BOOKS) would get eaten alive. The Wiseguys just like before DON BEST would eat them alive. They would have to take bets and wouldn't be able to avoid them. The REAL BOOKS would get stronger. The WISEGUYS would get stronger.

                        All the MONEY these "Hide behind the DON BEST books" make would go to the REAL BOOKS and make them stronger. After all "SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE PLAYS THAT MOVE THE LINES".

                        Do you guys really accept books who are really in a way cheating their customers by pretending to take BETS. What I'm mean is this. If you can't play with them until after they move their line and not before then they are not being fair to their players. PLAIN and SIMPLE.

                        Reality and The Devil

                        Yes you can do it and it can make you good money. But it's PATHETIC......

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Reality- Do you have any thoughts on what Skybook does with their baseball numbers? Many times when watching their moves it is unimaginable that they got bet at the number. It seems they manipulate the line to get the position they want(gambling with an edge).

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by bbuster:
                            Reality- In an earlier post you talked about classic bookmaking versus gambling with an edge. How would you classify your freind Spiro's style?
                            B.B.
                            HE HAS ALL THE TECHNICAL TOOLS OF A CLASSIC BOOKMAKER AND HE HAS THE STONES OF A CAT BURGLAR.

                            HE HAS A DEGREE IN ENGINEERING.

                            HE JUST TRULY GIVES THE PLAYER THE MOST BANG FOR THE BUCK.

                            HE'LL POST YOU A LINE ON ALMOST ANYTHING.

                            IF HE CAN'T FIND A LINE, HE'LL MAKE ONE.

                            THIS IS A MAN WHO TRULY LOVES THE BUSINESS.

                            I THINK THEY USED TO CALL SAMMY DAVIS JR.THE HARDEST WORKING MAN IN SHOW BUSINESS.

                            SPIRO IS THE HARDEST WORKING MAN IN THE OFF-SHORE BUSINESS.

                            HIS OLD COMPUTER SYSTEM COULDN'T GRADE PARLAYS.

                            WE USED TO WORK UNTIL THE LAST GAME WENT.

                            WE WOULD TAKE A NAP UNTIL THE LAST FINAL WAS IN AND STAY UP HALF THE NIGHT GRADING THE PARLAYS BY HAND AND DRINKING GREEK COFFEE...

                            REALITY



                            [This message has been edited by REALITY (edited 07-16-2000).]

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by bbuster:
                              Reality- Do you have any thoughts on what Skybook does with their baseball numbers? Many times when watching their moves it is unimaginable that they got bet at the number. It seems they manipulate the line to get the position they want(gambling with an edge).
                              B.B.
                              THEY HAVE AN OPINION AND THEY WANT TO BE ON EVERY SIDE.

                              JUST WATCH WHERE THEY ARE AFTER THE MOVE HITS THE SCREEN.

                              REALITY

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Great Post Doggie! You are the player's champion tonight. I think there is enough here for the first chapter of B'MS versus Sharps. If someone dropped in to read that wasn't a gambler he would probably need an interpreter.
                                It just seems to me that books that worry about wiseguys so much that they kick them out are dealing way too high a limit on the games for their risk tolerance.








                                [This message has been edited by bucky (edited 07-16-2000).]

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