The French can go to hell!

[gooden]

Woodstock, that argument always fails - especially in a democracy - because the politicians ARE the people.

[mikewise]

Hiptwo, Who writes the "*******" history books you read??? Historians born in the US of A I presume right??? You also say in one of your posts that "without the US the world would be a hell of alot different". First of all, without Europe there would be no US as we know it; also, without the US the world would probably have a different culture than that of MTV, McDonald's, and blue jeans with sneakers.

Imagine the people of the world eating pasta, vegetables, fruits, and drinking wine instead of hamburgers and soda.
Imagine the people of the world reading more Garcia Marquez, watching more Almodovar movies, listening to more Vivaldi, Bach, going to Le Louvre instead of Beavis & Butthead, The Tom Green Show, Green Day or any Jim Carrey movie.
Imagine the people of the world wearing more european designer clothing to make them look sexy instead of wearing oversized baggy multicolored jeans & sneakers.
Truly, what would the world be without our baby-sitter???

I agree with Woodstock in that we cannot generalize and degrate France because of some political decisions by their leaders. France is one of the most cultured countries in the world (as oposed to the US which I consider the least cultured country in the world); I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I consider any part of Paris far more beautiful than ANY CITY IN THE US!!!
Finally, if our politicians are our peolpe then the Americans are all nimpho-rednecks who lie, cheat and end up stealing furniture

[OZ]

haha

Well I don't know about most of it, but that last part about the " stealing furniture " was funny

[Woodstock]

Jeff K & gooden:

If what you guys say is true (and to some extent it is) then we have to change the name of this post to "Human Kind can go to Hell".

VIVE LA FRANCE!

WS

[Cons]

First of all, don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of Saddam. How could anyone be?

But what the US and UK governments are doing is an act of terrorism. Without the consent of the United Nations any military action is considered to be terrorism by international law. Thus, the US and UK are now on par with all the militant extremists who go around blowing up buses and airplanes.

This really pisses off someone like me because I tend to fly often and I don't want to go down during a flight simply because some extremist group decides to even the score. And if it happens it will only be because our governments have decided to become terrorists themselves.

About the French, I'm not a fan of them, though I know quite a lot of good French people. And Clement landed me a 33/1 bet too But you must remember that the French saved the American's asses in the war for independence so without them there would be no United States. Any historian will tell you that.

The US is the biggest military power in the world (China is second, forget the Russians), but in the Gulf War for instance more Brittish troops got killed by Americans than by Iraqis. More Americans got killed by Americans than by Iraqis. It's quite an embarrasing statistic actually. The British army is the most well-trained and respected in the world (just like its police force), though obviously the US military has the technological edge as well as a larger army in general.

[JT]

I for one as a American can see how we come of as arrogant, hypocritical uncultured asses to the rest of the world. Crying about human rights and then just slap the wrists of cops who torture and beat people. Etc, etc. Exporting crappy movies (for the most part) and McDonalds. (Should export In and Out instead). I wished we adopted the methods one must go thru to get a drivers permit like in Germany since people here are HORRIBLE drivers. BTW, doesn't the UN rank nations based on how it is to live there?

[chuckz]

cons,

you are correct about the us killing more of its own than the iraqis. however, you are mistaken in the way you look at it. those numbers are realistic and average in war. what is REALLY impressive is how little the enemy was able to do as far as body counts. THATS what is impressive. you are simply looking at the data in the wrong light.

[no pepper]

originally posted by mikewise:
Imagine the people of the world eating pasta, vegetables, fruits, and drinking wine instead of hamburgers and soda.
Imagine the people of the world reading more Garcia Marquez, watching more Almodovar movies, listening to more Vivaldi, Bach, going to Le Louvre instead of Beavis & Butthead, The Tom Green Show, Green Day or any Jim Carrey movie...
I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I consider any part of Paris far more beautiful than ANY CITY IN THE US!!!
[/QUOTE]

You can have your Vivaldi and Sancerre. Stroll through your Louvre wearing your beret and the arms of your sweater loosely tied around your neck. How about some Fat Tire Ale and old Steely Dan for me? Check out the Museum of Contemporary Photography on Michigan Ave in Chicago (you know, one of those cities with zero culture). Spend a few days in Binghampton NY or Jena Louisiana and tell me there's no culture or beauty.

You ever been to Eatonville Washington? Isle Marada, Prairie Du Chien, Austin, Point Clear Alabama? I been to France and my mattress was too soft, people were cranky, and the streets smelled like old cheese.

You nailed it when you said beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I won't stereotype France and say the entire country is full of terrible mattresses and stinky streets. Nice thing about America here is the freedoms and the wide selection of activity. I can go to a casino, opera, NHL, NFL, Museums, science center, MLB, college BB FB, bowling hall of fame, girly bar, high brow bar, fish, libraries, hunt, golf, camp all in less than 45 minutes from my crib. I am free to eat pasta and vegetables they sell at my local Piggly Wiggly (they even have wine there!). You can ignore Jim Carrey, McDonalds, Survivor if you try. Hell, you can even wear those tight sexy things that you say make you feel special without hauling ass to the Riviera. TC Boyle over Garcia Marquez. Tarentino over Almodovary. Beavis and Butthead over Jerry Lewis anyday.

[mikewise]

No pepper,
My intention was not to insult the US but to talk about what's outside the US.

I have been to many parts of the US; mostly to go shopping though. I have been to Chicago and let me say that I never stated that there was zero culture in the US, but I meant that IN MY OPINION, the US is the least cultured country in the world.

You make it very evident that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have no intention on discussing with you whether the Louvre, the Musee D'Orsay or the Centre Pompidou are nicer or more impressive than the Museum of contemporary this or that (most if not all the museums in the US are, logically, contemporary); I have no interest in discussing whether Jean Michel Jarre, Charles Alkan, Aznavour, Hector Berlioz, George Bizet etc, have better musical masterpieces than those from John Williams, Steely Dan, Bon Jovi, or Britney Spears; no intentions in comparing french wine to californian wine or Dom Perignon to Sparkling US, Cognac to Jack Daniel's, Benetton to the Gap, Louis Vuitton to Samsonites; Yves Saint Laurent to Banana Republic, french cuisine to US Cuisine, maxim's to mcdonald's, Nice or St. Tropez to Santa Monica or Daytona, Montesquieu to Edgar Allan Poe, etc etc etc.

Once and again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and my intention was never to discuss taste, or compare the US to France but to remind the BW readers that France is not a horrible place filled with horrible people, and to remind them that there are good things south of the Rio Grande and on the other side of both Oceans. One poster arrogantly asked what the world would do without the US??
I answered.

[DrunkenGoon]

Originally posted by no pepper:

...Nice thing about America here is the freedoms and the wide selection of activity. I can go to a casino, opera, NHL, NFL, Museums, science center, MLB, college BB FB, bowling hall of fame, girly bar, high brow bar, fish, libraries, hunt, golf, camp all in less than 45 minutes from my crib...

no pepper - Please don't take offense to what I'm about to say but you make a strong point against the North American society in what I quoted above...

I've lived on both sides of the ocean and we all know europeans go nuts for their soccer but they do it with limitations.

I think the North American society spends too much time on their sports. Sports is not the begining and/or end of life yet the majority of N. American men see no problem in speding anywhere up from 2-3 nights a week being parked on the couch or your fave hangout watching or for those who can afford today's ticket prices attending sporting events.

The beauty of european life is that you have so many choices that have nothing to do with sports that when you attend or watch sports you can get into it with the passion that the euros display. They don't have 162 MLB games or 82 NHL or NBA games just to get to the playoffs to warry about it. I think we're overdosed with sports and it shows because it tends to take away from all the other things one can do in life. That might be the reason why some north americans are viewed by the rest of the world as culturally challanged, obnoxious and annoying.

The french might be pompous and back stabbing but they've been doing it the same way for hundreds of years. No way they are gonna change for anybody.

May all your bets be winners

[chuckz]

The french might be pompous and back stabbing but they've been doing it the same way for hundreds of years. No way they are gonna change for anybody.


John Wayne Gacy buried kids in his basement for years and he wasn't going to change either. thaat does not make it OK.

chuckz

[Cons]

chuckz, Iraq never had a glimmer of hope to begin with. Their technology is decades behind that of NATO. It was a lost war from the very start.

Friendly fire is an issue in every war, but here it was carried to new levels. British tanks were being primarily fired upon by Americans. To be honest I don't even know why they brought tanks in to begin with. They should have cleaned out the place from the air first.

There was one incident in which footage was later released in which a group of Apache helicopters spotted a lone tank at night. It was far away from any base and appeared to be lost. For several minutes the pilots were unable to identify whether it was a NATO or Iraqi tank. Finally one of the pilots decided to arm missiles and let one rip. As soon as the tank was hit these beeping sounds went off in the cockpit and that's when they realised they had just struck one of their own.

The tank did not pose a danger as it was in the middle of nowhere. And here some moron who is in command of one of the deadliest weapons in modern history decides to fire one anyway. I can't remember how many Americans were in that tank, but they all came back in coffins. The pilot was relieved of duty after this incident.

War is bad though whichever way you look at it. The US and UK might conduct bombing raids over Iraq. Bin Laden's men might **** up US embassies in foreign countries. Will this ever stop?

I think the British Airways ( as well as all US airlines) pilots and crew are getting the worst deal here. And so are the thousands of passengers that fly with them every day.

[TrendSetter]

Originally posted by Cons:
There was one incident in which footage was later released in which a group of Apache helicopters spotted a lone tank at night. It was far away from any base and appeared to be lost. For several minutes the pilots were unable to identify whether it was a NATO or Iraqi tank. Finally one of the pilots decided to arm missiles and let one rip. As soon as the tank was hit these beeping sounds went off in the cockpit and that's when they realised they had just struck one of their own.

The tank did not pose a danger as it was in the middle of nowhere. And here some moron who is in command of one of the deadliest weapons in modern history decides to fire one anyway. I can't remember how many Americans were in that tank, but they all came back in coffins. The pilot was relieved of duty after this incident.

Cons, the apaches in that wing drifted from high winds. The personnel carrier was believed to be in enemy teritory. Did you ever hear of scouts that go around to get a fix on the enemy.

[Cons]

Of course I've heard of scouts. There were British special forces in Iraq way before the first bullet was fired. And I'm sure there were Americans doing the same thing.

The Apache incident shows a lack of discipline and a disregard for fellow soldiers on the part of the pilot. He was not supposed to fire unless he could positively identify the vehicle. Or unless it posed a threat. Unfortunately neither conditions were met, and because of some trigger-happy over-zealous pilot some of the boys didn't come back home.

Overall it's time to make peace and not war in the Middle East, and renewed bombing campaigns will only agitate the extremists and cause more mayhem.

[TrendSetter]

Originally posted by JT:
I for one as a American can see how we come of as arrogant, hypocritical uncultured asses to the rest of the world. Crying about human rights and then just slap the wrists of cops who torture and beat people. Etc, etc. Exporting crappy movies (for the most part) and McDonalds. (Should export In and Out instead). I wished we adopted the methods one must go thru to get a drivers permit like in Germany since people here are HORRIBLE drivers. BTW, doesn't the UN rank nations based on how it is to live there?

You don't have to eat at McDonalds. That's a choice. And if it weren't good then McDonald's would go out of business.

You don't have to go to an American movie. That's a choice. And if the American movies weren't good they wouldn't make money from them and would go out of business.

Do you have figures to back up who has the worse drivers. I believe the U.S. has better drivers than most. Go to Korea and observe their driving. Dangerous. What methods do you need to get a license in Germany? I didn't see anything special about their driving habits while stationed there. I don't think they're any safer, especially with no speed limit on the autobahn.