U.S. Customs

[eagle]

not trying to beat a dead horse, but, Curacao has a bunch of pretty damn good books. Royal, gold medal,sports market, top of the world and maybe a dozen more. the license fee in Caracao isn't cheap taxes are fairly expensive and this isn't a third world country(holland). Like a few of the earlier posts i can tell you the most important thing is not where the book is located but how they treat the customer and how fast they pay. longevity helps but not every book opened years ago. some like mine are fairly new. if you lose your rep in this business you have nothing to fall back on. if you find a few books that your happy with stay with them and enjoy your gaming.

[Cons]

I have to disagree with this: where a book is located should be very important to the sportsbettor.

Sure, just because a book is located in the Caribbean doesn't mean that it's a dodgy establishment. There are quite a few good books based in the area, though just because a book has always paid (even though it has only been around for 2-3 years) is nothing to cry home about. You see, pretty much anyone can base themselves in the Caribbean. Sure, certain islands have regulations in place, but if someone's going to pull the plug then they can do so and get away with it.

Being based in Australia or the tax havens surrounding Britain is almost a guarantee that your money is safe. Regulations there ensure that your funds are kept in separate accounts, so even if the book goes bust then your money is intact. It's an entirely different environment from the Caribbean, and much more trustworthy. Being based anywhere isn't going to guarantee that the people behind the business are straight, but if someone wanted to run a rip-off joint then they'd surely choose the Caribbean over Australia or the UK.

[This message has been edited by Cons (edited 11-22-1999).]

[STING]

There is reason to be concerned about playing with a book based out of Jamaica. I really wish that Olympic (a fine book) would move. Unlike many of these other countries, Jamaica and the U.S. have agreements with one another. In the past, the Jamaican government has been very cooperative with the U.S. government in their investigation of sportsbooks operating there (i.e. World). One thing Olympic does have going for it (and correct me if I am wrong), I believe the sportsbook is not run by Americans. James Truesdale and his associated had their lives turned upside down when the U.S. government indicted them with the assistance of the Jamaican police. While this case was later overturned in the Court of Appeals, it was years of agony for the owners to go through this.

[eagle]

CONS
have to disagree with your assessments on the English Books etc. most guys in this business WANT TO PAY. poor management and bad luck(games falling on the number etc put some legit guys into bankruptcy. They can have all your money in the bank but if they lose tons of money by opionionating the line and don't have enough to cover their losses how safe are they then. you make it sound like they can't fold under.

[ShiftySheik]

Good point eagle. You have to be careful posting up with any book that deals lines that are way off from the clone joints. Shading is ok, but if your book has a football line at -4.5 when the rest of the world is at -3, take that as a warning of a book that could get into trouble. If it happens too often, the book may not be safe. I don't like Jamaica either but the guys at Olympic are too smart to ever get into trouble.

[Cons]

Eagle, what I'm saying is that simply being based around the UK or Down Under (might depend on state though) is some kind of guarantee in itself. Being based in the Caribbean is no guarantee whatsoever.

If a book folds because some games land on the number, then that's one small book. Last year in the UK, the books took such a pounding that half the Caribbean books would have folded. I'm talking real big hits, mainly due to Man U winning everything there was to win. Books like William Hill were paying out of their ass, but then these guys are like a major bank, and one year of such dreadful misfortune doesn't affect them.

Kind of like all big companies. You read that they suffer 100M losses one year and yet they still continue to operate and bring profits the next.

Laws in certain countries like Australia ensure that your money is in segregated accounts. If the books make huge losses, your money is still there and you get it back if they fold.

Why take a risk when you can work in an environment with no risk whatsoever? That's why I choose my books with safety being the biggest priority.

I'm not saying that being based in the Caribbean is bad, what I'm saying is that being based there doesn't raise a book's credibility. I even use one Caribbean out, so it's not like I'm totally steering clear. It's just that I don't think it would be logical to take risks when there's no need to, especially since soccer betting options in most of the Caribbean books leave a lot to be deserved...

[eagle]

Good morning Cons, maybe I don't fully understand how they operate in the UK. Do they post a large bond along with the customer money. If they don't I can't seem to understand how safe is your money.

For arguements sake if they have 1 mil in accounts and lose 10 mil and have no other monies, Again I ask how do they pay.

Cons, I know the parable of the loaves and the fishes, but we're bookies not him. Sure your deposit money may be safe but what about your winnings. It's very hard to pay 10 when you only have 1.

I've been in this business longer then many of the posters to this forum have been alive, (32)years.Had many ups & downs, this is not an easy business. Don't know how many of you remember the old JK sports schedule. They had an ad that said "how can you take a line from someone who never had his door broken down, well I'm the guy.

Believe it or not, all the legit guys in this business would like to see all the beat artists, con men, scammers and the scum that proliforate as bookies out of business.They only give the industry a bad name and turn off customers who find them before finding a legit company.

Stay Well
EAGLE

[olaf]

Hello all,

In this forum I always here mention of how the Australian and European books are so much safer to play with, I suppose due to tighter regulation. Exactly what type of regulation exists, and how is it implemented?

As a player, you hope to be using books that are financialy secure, and have accurate systems. How does the goverment or regulatory body ensure that a book is financialy sound? Are the computer systems of the government monitoring risk for the sportsbooks under their regulation? If so, it still seems to me the book could get around all this, and perhaps they might want to for a variety of reasons.

In terms of accuracy, what happens when I bet a dime on a football game over the internet at Victor Chandler, and when I check the next day my winning bet is only in the computer for 10 bucks. How does a player have added protection against a scenario like this while playing at either a Australian or Euro book.

I remember last week Betmaker.com posted on this forum that they had LOST all the wagers made over the phone and the internet for all of Monday up until 6PM EST. This must have been a nightmare. Frankly I do not really understand how they handled that situation. They posted that they called all bets 'NO ACTION', well that makes sense because how can you call a bet action when you have no clue who bet what.

I really just want to understand how the industry is being regulated in areas other than the Caribbean. I think it is probably a bit overated as Eagle pointed out.

[Cons]

First of all Victor Chandler doesn't take bets online. They were supposed to, but are running behind schedule it seems, which I'm not to happy about.

What happens if bet records get lost or messed up? Hell, I'd like to know! Eagle definitely knows more about the industry and contingency plans that books have should such situations arise. I'm just a player here.

Eagle, being in the industry you obviously know William Hill. There guys are as big as they come. There's no way these guys won't pay. I'd sooner see all the other books in the world stop paying before William Hill does... but on the other hand every other aspect of their operation, like betting options and such, might leave a lot to be desired. All I'm saying is that they are as solid as Barclays or Lloyds Bank.

I don't know how the economics of the company works, but it's just like with other giant companies. They lose millions one year, yet still afford to pay wages and other costs. The next year they make a profit. Kind of like airlines or car manufacturers... except William Hill doesn't have quite as many ups and downs over the years. It's just last year that they took a pasting on soccer...

[ShiftySheik]

Cons, You're right about funds at William Hill being as safe as a bank. I read somewhere that the book is owned by Nikko Securities.

[boris]

We've (me & Cons) said it before, but there's always new people coming in here that haven't heard, so excuse the broken record routine.

The books in the UK have hundreds upon thousands of betting shops on top of their phone and internet betting systems. Customers place their bets at windows covered by security cameras, all phone lines are recorded etc, and the companies have millions and millions of dollars/pounds in equity, which is regularly checked by their regulating body. These places are legal and have been for a long long time. There is no threat of some redneck senator funded by the Vegas casinos being able to shut them down.

It's a similar situation in Australia. Darwin (International) All Sports recently listed on the local stock exchange, generating a company value of over $80 million. They have several enterprises also aside from the purely bookmaking sector.
Centrebet were purchased last year by Jupiters Casino, a massive corporation. It is no coincidence that both are located in the Northern Territory of Australia, in a region with an enterprising government which lured both operations there by reducing the turnover tax the businesses must pay, on top of the massive bond held in trust. The other states of Australia also contain legal sports bookmakers, the ACT, another tiny region has made enterprising agreements to host Megasports, City Index and Canbet/Capital Sports. All of these (and the other private) operations are also based on a local horse racing track, and under the jurisdiction of the local stewards, providing the consumer with an independent adjudicator in the event of a dispute. There have been no sportsbooks down here closed up, but race bookmakers are occasionally forced to hand in their licences when their assets and credit checks no longer match what they once had (ie they've started losing and well on their way to falling down).

The three other big players down here - TABCorp - ex Victorian TAB
TAB Ltd (SportsTAB) - ex NSW TAB
NZ TAB

are all government or formerly government (now public) enterprises that turnover several BILLION dollars per year, mostly due to their massive totalizator (pari-mutuel, and thus guaranteed big profits) horse racing operations. These 3 have monopolies in their home states with hundreds upon thousands of shop outlets, and local legislation that prevents DAS, Centrebet, Megasports etc advertising in NSW and Victoria because money that leaves those states is not taxable by the state government, thus the state loses revenue and its in their best (yet highly restrictive) interests.

The message is simple. If you bet somewhere in a LEGAL and regulated environment in a country big enough to stand on its own two feet against the USA, you and your money will be safe.

That is not to say that all of these operations will be excellent at customer service, or that a classy and solid operation cannot start in a smaller precinct such as Costa Rica or Curacao. It just means they have quite a bit of ground to make up on the rest of the (world) field that has been at this game legally for a long, long time.

Hope this makes sense to all of you.

[chestrockwells]

I'd just like to add that I think we tend to overestimate the size of the Caribbean operations both in terms of the action they get as well as the actual size of the business. I don't want to single anyone out because it will be misinterpreted somehow. There's nothing wrong with being small but I think that believing that most of the operations are large enough to survive any adversity is silly at best. All of those places in the Caribbean added together don't give you the cash flow or profit of one large Vegas casino. We, via new accounts and re-ups etc. keep the cash flow positive for many I suspect. Why do you suppose a number of shops are now doing re-up bonuses?

[eagle]

Boris, Chestrockwells

Appears to me that both of you gents own or work for sportsbooks. Like your loyalty to country and company. But, you guys are running with blinkers-on.

First, you have no idea of the amount written in the Caribbean. Believe me it's staggering. Longevity, sure some of you have been in business for long periods of time, but remember this a basicly an illegal business in the states so some of the owners and workers have also been at it for quite a long time. Why the Carib. The weather, close proxsimity to home and availibility to phone satelittes are some of the reasons. If the UK banned legilized gambling and you wanted to operate, where would you go. Then would you bash us. Standing up against the U.S. what are we doing, some of us CAN'T GO HOME.

We are all in the same boat, only some of us have smaller paddles. Instead of trying to make one place sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread and the Caribbean sound like we're crested with mold, extoll your own virtures without being critical of organizations you have very little knowledge of.

[chestrockwells]

Eagle,you couldn't be more wrong. I don't and have never worked for any sportsbook. Besides I went out of my way to NOT slam or disparage any sportsbook in my post. It is in fact people like YOU who come in and seemingly use every post to expound your virtues or those of your interests. I speak from my experience only and unlike you, and some others, have no hidden or personal agenda here.

[Mad Dog]

Eagle, I agree with you 100%. The best books are found in Antigua, Curacao and Costa Rica (as well as Olympic in Jamaica).

I'm sick and tired of all these people coming in here saying how safe it is to bet in the UK or Australia.

First let me say that I bet on football (the real football not soccer), basketball and baseball so I could care less whether a book offers any European sport. That said, there is not 1 book out there not based in Curacao, Costa Rica or Antigua (along with Olympic) that can compete against the books I'm with. Boris, name 1 book in Australia that offers what SOS or WSEX ofers? Name 1 and I'll tell you why they don't match up with them (for someone just interested in american sports).
The only book in Australia that comes close is Canbet. The others fall way short.

Can anyone name a book on the left that might be risky to play at? I'm with 7 of them and 4 more that aren't on the list and I sleep very well at night. And none of them are in the UK or Australia.