the list

[Jeff]

I posted this in another thread, but it was buried, and I didn't want this to be missed.....


Big Money: (and others)

I'll simply say that in order to use this site to your advantage, you need to take into consideration ALL areas of the site. The answers to many of your questions may not be posted or written anywhere for several reasons. Several good reasons. But the answers are there.

Read "the list". Memorize the list. Print it out.

If a book was on there, and no longer is, we are telling you that common sense says stay away.

That's really all I can say about the list. If books were on the list, and no longer are, yet you didn't read about it in here or elswhere on the site, you'll have to assume that we simply can't discuss the particular book.

[BigMoney]

I got it this time ; )

[zippy]

Jeff:

What sort of “good reasons”? I’m inclined to trust the judgment of the Bettorsworld administrators and regular posters, but I’d certainly prefer to assess the specific reasons for and against a given book for myself if possible. Here you’re basically just giving a wink and telling us how to infer which book(s) aren’t up to snuff, without informing us what the evidence is upon which you’re basing your conclusions, and without even identifying the book(s) in question explicitly. Why the vagueness and mystery?

Sorry if this is a stupid question. BigMoney says he now gets it, but he’s not as naïve and unsophisticated about such matters as I am, so I still need some clarification.

[BigMoney]

zip, maybe more details can be shared, but I suspect not. In this case, I'm simply accepting Jeff's decision on faith, backed up by a long term track record on his part.

I think there have been cases in the past in which books were guilty of offenses, but posed legal threats to the forum administrators. In these cases, there's not a complete detail of what happened.

[Jeff]

Actually, I can shed a little more light on my comments......

There are actually several reasons for not being able to discuss in detail my/our opinions of certain books.

The reasons for dropping a book from that list could range anywhere from slow pay/no pay, not paying advertising bills, not dealing with customer complaints in a satisfactory manner, etc.etc. I suppose the reasons could go on and on. On the plus side, I can say that very few books have ever been dropped from the list. I can also say, I'm considering putting easybets back on the list. They were dropped due to what I felt amounted to them being uncooperative in a couple of customer complaints when they advertised here.

I'll also tell you, that in the 4 years or so we've been doing this on the net, the single biggest catch 22 is when someone contacts me with a slow pay/no pay situation.

It kills me to know about a situation like that, not being able to say anything. Over the years, I have built up quite a circle of "friends" in this business, ranging from big players, to book owners, to small players.

9 out of 10 times, when I'm told something, or made aware of a situation, it's at request of the information provider that I keep it quiet.

Think about it. If a book owed you money, and wasn't paying, and you in turn contacted me to see if there was any help we could provide, the last thing in the world you would want is me broadcasting all over bettorsworld your situation. That would jeopardize you're getting paid, and we wouldn't want that.

It's a catch 22, and I hate it. But that's the way it is. I can think of several situations in the past where this came about, and the guys who were involved still frequent this site.

I'll also say this. There have been situations of slow pay in the past, in which the book concerned came through and finshed paying those they owed. While it's obviously not the preferred method of operation, it is honorable. I'd rather have a bookmaker say hey, I don't have the money to pay you right now, but I will pay you, rather than have him make ridiculous excuses.

Lastly, I'm more than happy to get on the phone and discuss sportsbooks, with anyone out there. There's players out there I have spoken to on a regular basis over the years. They provide me with feedback, and I do the same for them. It's a two way street, and in those instances, I can get into detail, whereas on the site, I really can't.

If you've got a situation you want to discuss, or just want discuss the industry in general, let me know. I can be reached via email 24 hrs a day, and would be glad to call you at your convienence.

Hope this explains things further. At times, the list is my only means of communication.

I can be reached at [email protected] or [email protected]

[zippy]

Thanks for the response, Jeff. That makes things quite a bit clearer. It sounds like a “lesser of the evils” situation. Generally, it’s obviously more informative and more useful to the forum readers to air things as openly as possible. The word needs to get out about which books are doing what. The more details the better. On the other hand, like you say, the only way you can help with certain specific cases is by keeping them confidential. I guess it’s best just to let the bettor involved make the call about if and when to go public. Certainly it’s been helpful the way Boomer, for instance, has written about his situation in detail. He has surely saved a lot of people a lot of money by warning them away from those who are cheating him. But I also have to respect the choices of those who decide they’ll be most likely to get paid if they hush things up.

BigMoney’s suggestion had occurred to me, and I find that scenario a bit more disturbing. I wouldn’t want to think that a disreputable book can censor criticism of itself in this forum by threatening bogus but costly legal action. The only thing worse than a no-paying or slow-paying book would be one with that same characteristic that also uses intimidation tactics to avoid exposure.

[Jeff]

I can assure you, I/we would never back down from a legal threat, unlikely as that would be. That's one reason it's so important to deal in facts and not speculation.

Also keep in mind, as far as someone coming forward in the forum.....in Boomers case, the amount of money involved wasn't significant. It was more important at that point to expose the book, and write off the money, as much as he'd still like to collect.

In other cases, the amounts involved may be significant to the player.

Every case is different......but sooner or later, it all comes out in the wash.....

[j]

Jeff,

Is "the list" what is under the link that appears on the homepage as "Sportsbook Quick-Guide"? A search for "the list" on that page doesn't turn anything up.

Also I want to know if I understand you correctly on how you would recommend we respond when a book disapears from the list. Let's say that I have an account with someone and the service is good and the payouts are prompt, and suddenly they disappear from the list. Would your recommendation be that I immediately close my account with that book?

[This message has been edited by j (edited 03-05-2000).]

[Jeff]

j-

if you enter the site thru the homepage, the list should be in the permanent links on your left.
http://www.bettorsworld.com/oddswiz/list.html

As far as a book being dropped, yeah, you would be correct. It would be the same as me talking to you over the phone, and you asking me about a specific book, and me telling you, "in my opinion, I'd stay away, or draw down".

Again, not too many books have ever been dropped.

Hey, It's also up to the individual to take the list seriously, or not. There have been times in the past when I've been able to come right out and say, xyz book is not paying so and so, and someone will say hey, they've always paid me, so I'm going to continue to use them. I guess you can lead a horse to water............

Keep in mind, it's very possible for a book to not pay, or slow pay a customer or two, while at the same time keeping their other players happy.

That list is a product of you guys, the players. If you think a book should be on that list that isn't, please contact me.

When I started that list, there were only 10 offshore sportsbooks! These days, it's almost impossible to keep up. There may be books out there that have been operating problem free for well over a year that I have no idea about, so I appreciate the feedback.

If you want a laugh...check out the following link.....
http://www.bettorsworld.com/oddswiz/listbackup.html


That dates back a couple years, and was never taken off our server. It was at that time, a "complete list". That's when we stopped keeping track of any and every sportsbook.......



[This message has been edited by Jeff (edited 03-05-2000).]

[j]

Jeff-

Thanks for being so clear and making it so easy.

[scott]

Jeff-Approximatley just when was that early list posted? Thanx, Scotty