Question for Hartley RE: Bowmans thread

[Socceroo]

I am a little puzzled as to why you pulled the plug so early and so emphatically on the thread about people who still use Bowmans. Not only is the thread closed down but all record of it seems to have been erased from the site.

You mentioned yesterday about it going too far but did not really specify how you arrived at this conclusion. You also mentioned slander but again did not specify which comments you were referring to. As I contributed to that thread along with many others I would really like to hear from you the reasons behind your actions.

I have some theories as to why it may have happened but I will of course let you enlighten me before I post any further on the matter – Look forward to reading your comments soon.

[Hartley]

Simple. BWorld tries to allow posters to be liberal in their views surrounding books but if they are going to make accusations they had better be backed up.

The thread seemed to suggest that Bowmans was in financial trouble and this just wasn't true. You have to remember that a lot of people come to sites like Bworld before deciding where to send their money and if they base this decision on wrong information then it is unfair to the book in question and also takes away from the credibility of this site.

To be honest I was originally going to edit the posts to take out the innuendo but that would have meant changing the whole thread almost. As such I felt it was best just to delete the whole thing.

If you don't like Bowman's then start a new thread stating you don't like them. And as long as the thread isn't slanderous it'll be left up. But if you are going to make accusations such as stating they are in financial trouble then you had better have facts to prove it.

[skeptic]

To Jeff, Brian, Hartley, and all posters:

As a long time poster of this site and even longer reader of the oddswiz site (since early 1997) I vehemently object to the Bowman's thread being deleted. There were some very valid criticisms of Bowman's in there and now you threw the baby out with the bath water. I read it after you locked it and frankly I found your reasoning pretty weak. One post implied future financial problems but it was clearly the OPINION of the poster. But you locked it and that is your right since it is your site.

To me, it was a border line call on whether or not to lock it. However, it was a black and white call on whether the entire thread needed to be deleted. I maintain it clearly shouldn't have been deleted.

It is also curious that after being locked for 2 days it disappears on the same day that Bowman's has a press release on the forum. It is also interesting to note that they could never take the time to discuss the poster's valid complaints but they sure knew how to start a new thread when they want to tout themselves.

[Jeff]

Skeptic, and others........You're right, in that the entire thread should not have been deleted. The problem here, is that the thread was 1st closed. Once closed, it can't be edited, which is what we should have done. Our mistake.

As Hartley mentioned, people are more than welcome to post their complaints. I think this is the 1st thread deleted from this site in months.

We won't tolerate however, "rumors" . There are plenty of places on the net where rumors are tolerated, even encouraged, we just don't want to be one of them.

If you're a current customer of Bowmans and have issues with recent treatment, by all means, speak up and complain.

I assure you, this is not related to their press release. We only became aware of their press release after the fact.

Thank you for understanding-

[Socceroo]

Hartley – Thank you very much for the reply, there are a few more things that I would just like to clarify.

First of all I think that it would be fair for me to say that you did not really give me the opportunity to ‘back up’ my post, because you pulled it within hours of me making it. A poster named ppeter asked questions of which I now have no record. I can back up everything that I have posted on this site, and everything that I will ever post in the future. Unfortunately I have a duty of care to the account holders of Bowman International and I will not open this can of worms unless those account holders wish it.

Secondly I do not dislike any sportsbooks that I play with, and my post did not indicate that I disliked Bowmans. I was merely passing on information that I have gleaned from a source in their Mauritius office, which appeared to fit in with the tone of the thread.

Finally I would like to know why you pulled the thread without knowing whether I did or did not have evidence to back up my comments and also what evidence you have to ‘back up, your comments that my information ‘just wasn’t true’. I would rather you posted your evidence, which if substantiated will be far safer than me posting mine.

[Jeff]

If you can provide details, I'd be glad to talk with you off the record. Email me a number to reach you at, and you can tell me all the info you have to back this up.

[email protected]

[Durango Dan]

I originated the Bowman's thread because I was feeling frustrated over what I perceive to be Bowman's slippage during the past few years.

I have no ax to grind, but as a long time customer of Bowmans I often feel frustrated at the fact that they often post lines much later than other books I use, they are no longer available to wager with 24 hours a day, they have promised to go online for over 2 years now and their current press release notwithstanding I'm not sure if they ever will be online, and recently I find that they often have games off the board that are available to play on at all the other books I use. Sometimes the games are reposted, sometimes not. I am a small player who would seem ideally suited for Bowmans, but even I find it frustrating that when I do want to make a play of $200 I have to wait for approval - a minor inconvenience to be sure but it is aggravating, and occasionally the line changes!!

The issue for me is that as a loyal customer, why should I continue to use Bowmans? They are no longer the only reliable book out there, so if they don't offer the same conveniences as their competitors, I would think Bowmans is at a serious disadvantage.

Obviously, the easiest thing for me to do would be to withdraw my funds and move on. But what can I say, my mother was born and raised in the UK so it's hard to cut ties completely. I agree with Skeptic that Bowmans should take the time to address some of these issues. It certainly would reassure your current clientele, and encourage loyal customers like me to stay on, rather than think seriously of pulling my meager funds.

Thanks! DD

[Socceroo]

Jeff - Thank you kindly for your offer, but is there any particular reason that we need to speak 'off the record' I am not aware of any but if there is something that you need to know confidentially I am on the e-mail address that we conversed on before. Just to remind you it is [email protected].

However I would like you to address the points that I raised in my previous post as I feel these have simply been ignored.

Skeptic - I think that you will find that this has everything to do with the press release made by Bowmans, although I doubt very much that Jeff or anyone else at Bettorsworld has been made aware of the connection by Bowmans.

[Jeff]

You asked why the thread was pulled without knowing whether you had the evidence or not.

That is precisely the answer to why the thread was pulled.

Somewhere along the way, people in general, got the idea that the internet was a place where they could post whatever they want, whenever they want.

Freedom of speech, etc.etc.

In theory, it's a great concept.

In reality, it doesn't exist.

Fact is, there's always someone to answer to.

We are responsible for the content on this site.

We have a responsibility to to the people that read this site as well as the businesses who advertise here.

If we let statements like your go unchecked, where would that leave us?

Should we let everyone come in and post their "rumors".

Will the people that post their rumors help us fight our lawsuits?

Look, players like Durango Dan are more than welcome to post their dissatisfaction with any book they play with. That's the purpose of this forum. It's then up to the books to do the right thing by their customers, and I agree, his concerns should be addressed.

But when we're talking about the financial well being of a company, I would think that we (bettorsworld) have at least earned the respect of a phone call with detailed information.

That's the only way we can make an educated decision based on the information provided. Otherwise, we're throwing darts, and it's just not right.

[mls]

No principal at Bettorsworld would have deleted the entire Bowmans thread.

Hartley, once a defender of Intertops policy of kicking out winners, now has chosen to be Bowman's defender - why, I cannot imagine ...

Of the books that pay, I cannot think of a book with more customer service complaints than Bowmans.

Hartley gaurantees that Bowmans is financially solid - maybe, maybe not - I doubt very much Hartley has access of audited financials of Gary Bowman and Bowmans Intl.

I know this - when a book starts requiring a supervisor to OK a $200 bet, when a book drops limits to nothing, when a book goes to dealing three different lines, when a book kicks winners out, and when it responds to honest criticism by kicking out customers, these are all red flags ...

Had I recognized these red flags when I was betting at Bet-the-Net two years ago I would not have lost over 13 dimes. Maybe such warnings about Bet-the-Net were posted somewhere - someone like Hartley probably deleted them as "unsubstantiated" ...

This forum is useless if posters cannot post their concerns, complaints, and opinions.

[Hartley]

Just to clarify, I do not currently have an account at Bowmans. And as I stated earlier, feel free to start a new thread on Bowman's but keep the rumours and unsubstantiated "facts" out of it.

[Socceroo]

Jeff - I agree entirely with the point you make about earning respect, of course you and your site have earned my respect and I apologise profoundly if my comments have appeared disrespectful, that was not intended. The way this incident has been handled however has made me slightly apprehensive about contacting you by telephone but I will e-mail you the information that I have within the next few days. It is then yours to do with as you will. If Bowman account holders state in this forum that they would like it to be made public I will expect you to oblige otherwise, I will.

However I do disagree with the stance that yourself and Hartley seem to be adopting that every single comment that is made on this site has been substantiated. That is simply not true, I have been a reader for many years. So although I accept your criticism, I maintain that I was merely posting in a manner that I had previously witnessed.

The fact that the post was pulled in the manner it was and has subsequently been blown out of all proportion makes me think that it may have touched a raw nerve and also that pressure is being applied to you by a third party. If this proves to be the case and you bow to it, then quite frankly sir, you do yourself and your site a great injustice.

[Jeff]

I Bow to no one.

We take into consideration all the info we have, and make decisions.

We treat all books equally, and have no special allegence to any one book.

If the information warrants it, we can and will kick off any book that appears on this site.

You can't judge any other threads because you don't know the circumstances behind them. You don't know what info I have and what info I don't.

Many people take the time to provide me with info over the phone. When they do this, it puts me in a position to be able to let threads go on.

Once again, you can speak with me whenever you wish, and provide me with all the details.

If you choose to do it via email, so be it. Not sure why you would be aprehensive to talk with me.

As far as being blown out of proportion, the only one doing that is you. I can only throw darts until you tell me exactly what you are talking about.

Let's stop the guessing games and tell me what the hell you are talking about.

[BBKing]

If even half the stuff about Bowman's discussed in said thread were true, they are far, far behind numerous other outs.

No net betting and brutal treatment of customers. There are plenty of folks that want your action more than that.