The French can go to hell!

[<chuckz>]

The sorry ass french will find out next time THEY need the help that we won't be so "enthused".

and european soccer is more fanatical than any u.s. sport. hell, people get crushed in the stands and for what? a 1-0 score.

chuckz :mad:

[Cons]

It's not that some people don't get it, it's just that some people have a different point of view. I am putting a large part of the blame on US foreign policy (well not just me, former head of national security has this standpoint as well). The US administration should look back at its actions and take on itself part of the blame for what is going on, including the incidents in NY. When you go bombing other countries it's supposed to be ok but when someone takes down two of your towers you cry "not fair!" Maybe this is a lesson: what goes around comes around.

I agree the French can go to hell because they are a backstabbing nation and to be honest I wouldn't even want their forces on my side. But this is clearly not something for NATO but a problem for the US to solve on its own. I would never sanction the use of British troops, especially not tanks as we would end up having more casualties from trigger-happy American fire than from the hands of the Afgans. It's no fun fighting alongside an ally that poses more of a threat than the enemy itself.

As for soccer, that is the world's greatest and most popular sport. Compare audience figures for the Superbowl and the World Cup and it'll be like comparing the Iraqi air force to the American one. As for people getting trampled, that would only happen nowadays in a developing country with no safeguards in place. But I do recall someone getting shot dead at a sports event in Seattle. How's that for safety!

[tripleplay]

Cons -Im sorry but you stand out here as one of the most ignorant insensitive self-interested apologists for the mental midgets who knew nothing about love, nothing about life, I have ever seen. dont you know why this really happened. Because starving people will listen to anything you throw at them. why terrorists die so willingly, they have been taught by the extremists that life should hard austere a kind of self enslavement. They hate life itself. I dont blame them for that if I couldnt listen to music and all the other crap Id go insane maybe too. So any argument you come up with to defend them seem to be just so many irrational and worthless words. Most of these autonomic imbecils were starving when they were found and recrutied by their handlers.They would listen to anything they were told. Their only strong belief initially was in getting they and their families fed. Starvation of food starvation of love starvation of spirit. These are the roots of these sculptured maggots. Brave men? Or a coward that didnt have the nuts to fight like men? Think. Because of cellphones we know they slit a womans throat in front of civilized people as his first "great act" for Allah. Does this make sense to you? And your "perspective"? is to defend these piles of sh*t and what they did to people from 80 nations and the people of New York and Washington and the passengers on all the jets? Your total lack of humanity is evident! You sound like your saying whats all the fuss about here? Mentioning that these scumbags merely hit two towers without any reference to the 6000 people that they also hit is the epitome of ignorance and you should go get a heart sewed into your chest because you obviously lack one. And if Afganistan has nothing to you with this then where is Bin Ladens "guest house?" If hes in your house pal then you have everything to do with it. The Taliban will find that out at the appointed time. If people like you can think of this holocaust of 7000 innocent men woman and children as not worth mentioning in this discussion, you and the cheering mobs of terrorist sympathizers can go to hell along with the French, you will certainly be among friends there...

[Cons]

tripleplay, sorry mate but there's no point in continuing this discussion. It seems like you have no idea what is going on. You're one of those typical Americans that thinks his side is always right no matter what and that bombing the shit out of the opposition is always the best solution available. You're full of propaganda which seems to have originated from too much exposure to tv, but then that's quite normal for someone from the other side of the pond. Talking about terrorism, the United States itself harbors terrorists and it is money from your country that is sponsoring terrorist activities within the United Kingdom. To put things fair and square you're as guilty as the Afgans in providing a safe haven for terrorist scum.

What makes you think it's ok for the US to bomb other countries and do much worse things than levelling two towers with 6000 people inside? Take a look at yourself bud before you throw dirt elsewhere. You sing the words "land of the free" but you have no idea what that means. You can't even wager legally in your free country, and even if you do you have to humiliate yourself in front of the IRS and declare any profit you make. When I called the tax office in England and asked if I should report my gambling profits they thought I was joking!!! This is what personal freedom is about. Real freedom that is. And God bless the British troops, the best and most respected army in the world, if they have to go into Afganistan.

Returning to the notion of freedom, my heart goes out to Jay Cohen, who put his life on the line in the belief that justice would be served, and who we should all respect for standing up not only for his rights, but for the rights of each and every one of us.

[hiptwo]

cons,a couple of questions. iam thinking when you say the united states harbors terrorist are your refering to the irish? if so i have to agree with you. as far a bombing other countries are we talking about iran,bosnia and a few other ones. question is WHY did we and WHY are we bombing them. Iran invade's a peace full country, they didn't just invade that country they RAPED IT AND LOOTED IT. attila the hun would have been proud. iran is trying to develop weapons of mass destruction and if anyone thinks saddam will not use them then they don't live in the real world. bosnia i guess we should let genicide happen all over again. the world turned a blind eye in the second world war,and i don't just mean this country. another question do you think this country is or ever tried to conquer other country to expand its bordors (yes we screwed the american indians} now lets go back in history, look at europe and the middle east just them two regions at one time or another rule 3/4s of the world. we had the ottoman empire, the british empire,the list goes on and on. one of my theorys why the middle east hate's us so much is the want the power and influeance back that they lost a thousand years ago. do i want revenge and justice? damn right i do,we as a country always knew we had the power and i think for the most part we have done a great job. try and imagine a hitler or stalin,napoleon,musselina with this kind of power. the world would be knee deep in shit. i still say we hit them and hit them hard, most of them live in the stoneage but belive me it could ba a lot worse!!

as far as soccer i love the sport!

[tripleplay]

It's latent anarchists like you who dont know whats going on until its too late. If you were laying in the gutter dying I would step over you so I dont think you should be calling me mate anymore. The whole world should wake up every day and thank God that America exists for them as much as for americans themselves. No country is perfect. But our strengh as a nation is what we believe in- freedom for all peoples of the earth and slow elimination (slow or fast depends on them- bombing our cities will get fast)for countries or groups who would deny freedom to others or who try to exterminate others. Every other country thats civilized understands that if we fail they are all doomed. Whetever we do (bombing) is always with this in mind. We dont want land take over we want everyone to be happy and stop killing each other we dont think were always right and I dont reccomend bombing the shit out of any country unless they have weapons of mass destruction they are planning to use on us or others (ask the Kurds about how bad we are)- Iraq used weapons of Mass D on their own people! Pardon us for thinking they might be used on other countries even yours and stopping it by bombing Iraq. Excuse us!!! There are a few of these countries left in the Middle East and they better side with the New World Order quick because were done discussing the present situation with you or any of the terrorism is a good thind a good balancing tool for the planet supporters. I hate to think if things were reversed ok I did and if Iraq was the US probably all American -Arabs in this country would be rounded up and killed after what happened. I think Cons takes his freedom for granted here and thinks freedom is something your born with or can buy in a shoppe. Ill bet you think Milosevich had some legitimate reasons "if you really think about it" for the payback he dealt out with his ethnic cleansing genocide plan and shouldnt have been bombed hed be still mass killing today if we didnt. Nobody but us ever has the guts to do anything like that to spur the world to take action against this type of thing wherever it happens even as the ignorant try and discredit us. Thats why you apologists for terrorism against us and the world hate us. Because we have the guts to give out and take the punches while the rest of the world pretends it doesnt exist. But thankfully most of the world is on the same side in this. The punches will be dealt out by many countries includind Greast Britain . They should deport you to Iraq what are you doing in England if you cant be loyal to your own Prime Minister or Country who are with us with the World having the same "perspective as we do." People like you are just flapping their mouths to listen to themselves talk. Its you that will never get it Cons...not the USA.

[Cons]

Hi hiptwo, the question of bombing is a good one. And it's true that there are several "dangerous" countries out there that are trying to achieve nuclear capability. The question is what can be done to prevent that from happening? I personally don't think it's possible to prevent these countries from ever achieving that goal. We can of course bomb and bomb some more, but that is only going to delay the inevitable (what I mean is that one day they are going to get their hands on these weapons). And it's going to make them very pissed off when that time comes. Personally I think the best solution is to start taking away any reason they might have to hate us. That is probably the only long-term solution to peace (though a very difficult one), as nuclear non-proliferation is only easy in theory. It should of course be supported but in a way that is not going to infuriate these nations. Recently India and Pakistan became nuclear powers and that could not be stopped. Add to that the Russians and the mess that they have with their nuclear arsenal and we really have a problem on our hands. I agree with you about altogether doing a good job as a country. If any of those leaders you mentioned had this power the world would be in disarray.

Great Britain and America have a very strong alliance between each other that is even stronger than NATO. Both countries will follow each other blindly into battle and even today I was watching live pictures of Royal Air Force aircraft (Tornado) taking off from our bases in England and heading for the Gulf. The UK will act together with the US on this, and I believe that whatever actions they make will be the right ones. Contrary to what people think, GW Bush is a smart guy. The media tries to make him look stupid but nothing can be further from the truth. And he has a very close advisor in his dad which is going to be a valuable asset as well.

tripleplay, I thought I was having a discussion with an intelligent person but that theory has now gone down the drain. And stop calling people names because that's what kids do best. Reading your posts I could easily come to the conclusion that you think just like a terrorist. You never answered to my previous post about the US itself harboring terrorists. Or maybe you think it's ok to turn a blind eye to this? Did I ever say it was wrong to bomb Saddam? I fully supported the Gulf War and the dismantling of his military. What I don't agree with is that 10 years down the road we're still dropping bombs on him and starving the nation, all of this with no justifiable reason. What I was saying was that the NY incident, as horrific as it was, was their way of striking back. And part of the blame for this has to be attributed to US foreign policy. Do you get it now? I don't think I can lay it out any clearer. BTW to clear the record I never said the USA will never get it. Someone like you might not, but your leaders are smart people who know what is going on and why.

[tripleplay]

The US and England will in your own words "follow each other blindly"? What kind of a statement is that? You have severely prejudiced your as you would have us belief neutral position with that remark. Lets face it Cons youve got an axe to grind against the US and Im not going to let you. Nothing- do you get it mr cons -nothing justifies what was done to the USA!!!. Anyone who believes otherwise is a dangerous fool. Names? Im sory if I offended you but I callem as I see them, and if it makes you feel better Ill use less inflamatory names if you like. But do me a favor will you? Dont reduce the slaughter to a tearoom debate over past sins. Everybody is guilty of something. Can we let it go at that please. You go back 50 years to rant about stuff your cover is blown. Are you an old Communist perhaps? Start living in the present its a new milleniun your questions might be worth responding to otherwise your not worth answering on point because you harp on things that are irrelevant to whats happening now.

[Cons]

You're asking what kind of a statement is that? Gee whiz, take a guess. The two countries are allied and will fight alongside each other if it comes to that. What neutral position are you talking about?!? I have no axe to grind against anyone, well only maybe against certain individuals who don't see the full picture. It also seems that you are easily infuriated by the fact that someone else's line of thought is not parallel to yours. Tough luck mate, but that's the way it is. Not everyone is going to agree with you. As I mentioned earlier in two of my other posts, your very own ex-head of national security shares my viewpoint, so go argue with him a bit. Go throw some of these words at the guy who has devoted his entire life to the United States. Tell him mr. tripleplay knows better.

"Are you an old Communist perhaps?" Is this another one of your highly intelligent comments? There was a time in US history when it was in fashion to state such false premonitions but that was a long time ago. I thought you might have drawn a lesson from history but obviously I was mistaken.

Back to the topic at hand, things are going to start to get serious soon. I trust that whatever action is taken will be aimed strictly at the terrorists and not at entire countries in the area. I think the last thing we need right now is a prelude to WW3. I'm quite certain that the US is ready to use neutron bombs in Afganistan. Pakistan was probably already told that allied planes will fly over its airspace whether they like it or not, and I'm quite sure the repercussions for shooting down an allied plane were carefully laid out and constituted the use of nuclear weapons. It didn't take long for Pakistan to comply, and you could tell in that general's speech that the guy was clearly shaken. On an end note, I don't believe we'll see anything serious happen until after September 27th.

[BERT]

Cons,
your point of view is the most intelligent I´ve read in the last two weeks on such forums.
The only thing I don´t understand is why you waste your time on such discussions - it´s easier to win a bet on ManU to relegate than to convince an American that he is wrong.

And you are sure, you are a Brit ?

[tripleplay]

Thanks for the backhand slap Bert. Ouch. I guess I needed that. Give me a second to brush myself off. There. - No, we will not use nuclear weapons in Afganistan. We have other kinds that are of the nature of psychological than lethal. See most of the really tough fighting will be done where the terrorist is hiding. And we dont know hes in there until we smoke him out. What idiot would nuke a cave to kill small bands of fighters. So stop this crazy nuke talk Cons please. Thats it- stir up the masses -as if WE had just killed 7000 civilians on purpose.
The greatest error in Cons thinking is that he wishes to establish a link between the terrorism and the oppressed, the downtrodden, freedomless peoples of the world. Thing is, most of these people exist this way because of the way their leaders have treated them. Regular Afgans are as much against their Taliban goverment as we are and cannot wait for the Northern Alliance with the only world recognized leader of Afganistan among them to retake Kabul. This is not another Vietnam. We learned that lesson. We we wrong there and admit it. That was the wrong way to help a country divided against itself. I was against our involvement there. But this is different. This is worse than Communism. Communists wanted you to see their way of thinking as correct, while terrorists are not trying to win you over. They dont need us to think like them. They dnt want us to see that are wrong about anything. They want to detroy us. They want Isreal wiped off the world map. to. So why does cons become the terrorist apologist? Surely he doesnt want to see his countrymen loose blood over this, and I agree with Bert- what is your country cons and are you sure youre British? If you are you are definitely not of the same perspective as Tony Blair nothing wrong with that though...... but to the point- why dont we call Afganistan Terrroist training camps Mosques? Filled with women and children so when we do start shooting it will be only at civilians in your mind and the people, extremists perhaps, who tell you they like your words? Your just a sucker for a compliment,cons. I mean, thats why you bother debating the issue which right now is being talked about on many boards around the world. Its was chilling today when I saw a television piece today which mentioned that many of the terrorists theyve rounded up in the US were acessing gambling chatrooms going to strip clubs and drinking while they live in this country. I quess they were really faithful to Allah during their time away from their brainwashers by drinking gambling and whoring. And anyone who would go to his death so he could have 17 young virgins sounds like some Madison Avenue advertisement guy who designed a cult catch phrase brilliantly designed to work on young 17-24 yr olds suppressed sexually by the Taliban rules and promises which are a joke. They must have gotten that idea from a beer commercial featuring some scantily clad women. I think the defense secratary should ask these extremist arab states to explain why these things are being told to young terrorist recruits. Call them out on this issue because because no Muslims or Islamics scholars can find it anywhere in their bibles. Hucksterism in the name of religion? Give it a name. A neutron bomb would certainly cause enough damage to get that 7000 back wouldn't it. Cons is a manipulator of the truth for his own satisfaction and the sad thing about it is he might get his readers to strap some dyno around themselves and accidently walk into the same hotel mr cons is staying at I mean the English are hated by the Afgans from a long time ago. Wouldnt you wish you didnt write such preposterous assertions for the sake of quelling inflammatory rumors of using nukes? At that moment knowing you would probably finally realize youre just fanning the flames of anti-Americanism? Weve got to get the word out cons too cons to these young future bombers of America. You are being lied to! There are no 17 virgins waiting for you!!! Enough of this insanity!!! Cons- enlighten us. Where do you stand on the vow of these same Arab states that sponsor terrorism, you will admit to that at least, that Israel MUST be destroyed although they have threatened no one? They have an internal problem with Palistinians. They are being blown up daily by these terrorists and they dont attack the Arab states. They keep taking hits bloodshed every fu*king day. They do nothing except do what the US is doing try to get the cowards that are behind it. Is that to much to ask? Talk like that it makes Americans determined to protect Israel because no one should be allowed to exterminate a people, not Hitler, not Hussein (whos still around and has vowed to destroy Israel) not Milosevich, and not the Terrorist. And that it why we back them up. Its that simple...

[Cons]

You're right BERT, there's no way to find reason with this guy. He has no clue as to what he's rambling on about. Are you sure you don't live in Montana, tripleplay, where certain people believe the United Nations is trying to take over America? I bet you own a shotgun.

I am not going to continue this discussion as it's a waste of my time. None of what you're saying makes any sense (except for certain well-known facts which I'm not trying to argue, like the brainwashing about the 17 virgins waiting in heaven... ), and you're trying to put your words into my mouth (Cons thinks this, Cons thinks that...). I'll leave you with two points that even you yourself know to be true: 1) US foreign policy is partially to blame 2) the US itself also harbours terrorists. These are facts and not opinions, as much as you would like to blindly claim otherwise.

I wish we had a separate forum here for such topics as they are in fact interferring with other issues more relevant to the betting world, such as the DirecBet situation.

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Cons ]

[Cons]

Before I forget: I was born in London, the city which has often been the target of terrorist attacks funded from within the United States. And yes, I'm a British Citizen. I even went to the same school that Princess Di went to

[tripleplay]

Thats it Cons - do what Bin Laden is doing -run. Lets face it you lost the argument when yesterday Afganistan was virtually blockaded by all contries surrounding it, even Iran is cooperating in this war on our side!!! Strange bedfellows eh Cons? But you? Youre left with a pair of 2's mate. Too bad. So long sucker... Your whole argument was so full of crap. Sympathy for the Devil Id call it like the Rolling Stones said. It doesnt work and never will...

[Cons]

My God, this is like talking to a litle kid :rolleyes: You can't accept that notion that you could be wrong, you can't accept that someone has a contrary opinion to yours... grow up kiddo! What arguments did I lose? You didn't even address my arguments (instead you try to make up a few like those in your last post) because you know you have no case. All you do is change the subject and go rambling on about 1,000 other issues which quite frankly I can't be bothered to talk about. Not with you at least. You can't even put all your ideas into order and present them properly. Do kids in your area receive a proper education? Maybe they're too busy installing metal detectors and making sure you lot don't shoot each other instead.

One last question for you that is irrelevant to the subject at hand, I simply want to hear your answer: is the USA the freest (personal freedom, civil liberties) country in the world? Just cut the crap, don't go running around the bush, and give me an honest answer please. It's not a trick question, I just want to hear your opinion.