Plight of a Sportsbettor

[sportshobby]

There are quite a few really good sportsbooks that run a fair game. It's OK for you to win, OK to lose. They deal the same line to everyone, and the same limits to most. They make money, right? Of course they do. These are the giants in the industry, CRIS, Sports-Market, DelMar, Jazz, Olympic, RIO, WWTS, etc.

So why do other books want to play the game differently? I've seen so many sportsbooks that start out with open arms, then quickly change all the rules or even run some players off altogether. If winners are not allowed, is that a fair game?

What about a player that hasn't even won, but seems to be in sync with the moves? A wiseguy, they'll say - not welcome here. This is what really puzzles me: if a sportsbook throws out a player for being first to the punch on a move often, don't they just give that opportunity to some other player?

I've read Reality's take on this issue before, that it's OK for shops to adopt whatever policy they want on "wiseguys". My problem is that these sportsbooks interpret their own definition of "wiseguy" however they wish.

Listen, I'm just a retired engineer who likes to handicap and play sports. I'm not a syndicate or a mover or even a scalper. But I do make my own picks and watch the screen to decide when/where to play. So I usually get the best line, and often beat some big moves. But over and over I get labeled and treated in all sorts of ways.

I'm interested in others' take on this, from both sides of the counter.

[lillihammer]

sportshobby,

only been doing this for a month. my book's internet bet limit is 6-times higher than the one they are giving me and i am consistently getting inferior odds. at my current rate my big sign-up bonus will soon be spent on these inferior wagers and i feel i will be moving on shortly.

i suddenly am gripped with the realization my highly endorsed book does NOT provide any information to odds services as far as i know.

the seven books you list in your opening paragraph are going to be receiving some scrutiny from me shortly.

could you elaborate on the kind of treatment you've been getting?

[randyrohm]

To give you my short answer, we are on the right side of the counter. It would be nice if everybook treated all players like the top shops do, but even with the ocasional BS some shops may give you I am convinced the sharp player has the best of it right now. With reduced vig, bonus seed money and a plethera of diferent numbers available, let me at'em.

[Chilly]

I'm in agreement about the lack of ability of bookmakers to know who are the wiseguys. I think they panic too quickly, and err on the side of tossing you "just in case." I've been booted for my "style of play", whatever that meant, from several books. I tried to explain why my plays were correlated with moves--I am a great shopper--but to no avail. Thus, it seems if you are good or sharp or both, you are asked to leave some places. Since there are enough places that take my bets without showing me the door but paying me, I don't cry about it, just move on....wait a minute, I do cry about it, just not today for some reason.


Chilly

[reno]

Whether one is a player or a scalper, an integral part of success is getting the best number available at any given time. It is a shame that some sportsbooks penalize players for being astute shoppers. Books that boot players for being smart shoppers need to be exposed in offshore forums. The negative publicity they receive will rightfully discourage players from posting-up with them.

[Underdog7]

Sportshobby - excellent point here. I'm glad you brought this out. Everytime you call a shop and try to open up an account, they give all the attractions just to get the business. And once you're in, some shops don't even have the "balls" to take the hit. I don't want to mention names here, but there are some shops out there that when payout time occurs, you know that they are sweating it out. Stay with the giants and fair ones is the best and safest move. F*** the bonusses.

[Eman]

sportshobby....I think one of the advantages to using the books listed here at bettorsworld is that not only have they been checked out, (by someone more familiar with books than me) but I have seen situations where somebody has posted a problem and Brian or Jeff ask them to email them and they'll look into it. I don't know if they have been resolved satisfactorily or not but I feel more comfortable knowing the guys at bettorsworld are gonna stand behind the players and make sure the books advertised here are legit and "play fair". I don't know how much clout these guys have with the books but my guess is, it would be more than me as a single player. This isn't meant as a commercial but with 25 books or so to choose from, I don't see a reason to take a major risk with an unknown book. I would bet if you used the books listed here and felt you were treated unfairly, at least you have a possible out for explaining your situation.

[sportshobby]

Thanks for all the replies - I suppose I should offer some more specifics. I hope to also get some perspectives from the other side of the counter. What I consider unfair may not be seen as such by others.

I think it is only fair to have posted limits that can be assured any player. Is it fair to reduce a player's limits because he wins? Is it fair to reduce a player's limits because he is on the right side of the moves more often than not? Is it fair to reduce a player's limits because he is often first in the big wave of moves? I don't think so.

I think it is only fair to have your advertised policies apply to all players. Is it fair to advertise one free payout per month but charge some players anyway? Is it fair to open at 11:00 for most, but make a few players wait longer? I don't think so.

I think it is only fair to process a players wager requests promptly. Is it fair to put a player on hold 2-3 times in one call? Is it fair to stall on quoting the line to see if something might be moving? I don't think so.

[Underdog7]

sportshobby - Do you really want to know the meaning of FAIRNESS in this business? This is what it meant. PAY the guy in regardless of amount when he wins, anytime, anywhere, anyplace. Now that is FAIR.

[sportshobby]

Maybe the lack of response just means there's no such thing as unfair - the books set their own rules and the players either take it or leave it.

[Jeff]

The label "wiseguy" is one I have always gotten a kick out of.......

It seems to cover such a large group of players.

To me, a true wiseguy is one who originates his own plays + wins. 9 out of 10 times, he does this for a living.

But I don't agree with lumping everyone else into the wiseguy category. Scalpers, milddlers, followers, etc.etc......

Why should a scalper be feared? He isn't even playing an opinion. That's blind money. Unless your that leary of your own line.

Why should a follower be feared? So, he's quick enough to grab the original number at times. What about all the other times where he's taking the worst of it?

I did learn something about the other side on my recent trip to Curacao and Antigua however.....I've always argued that why should a player be prevented from popping a game a second or third time for the limit, if the book is going to just leave the number up there, and let someone else pop it.....the answer from the books is that they would rather have 10 guys beat them for 10 dimes each, than have one guy beat them for 100 dimes. The reason being, if 10 guys beat them, then all 100k doesn't walk out the door and they still get a shot to win some of that back. When one guy does it, the chances are, much of that 100k goes bye-bye.

Fair enough........

[sportshobby]

Jeff, good points. I'll bet there are a large number of middlers, scalpers, and followers that get limited or chased by poorly managed sportsbooks.

[REALITY]

Originally posted by sportshobby:


I've read Reality's take on this issue before, that it's OK for shops to adopt whatever policy they want on "wiseguys". My problem is that these sportsbooks interpret their own definition of "wiseguy" however they wish.

Listen, I'm just a retired engineer who likes to handicap and play sports. I'm not a syndicate or a mover or even a scalper. But I do make my own picks and watch the screen to decide when/where to play. So I usually get the best line, and often beat some big moves. But over and over I get labeled and treated in all sorts of ways.

I'm interested in others' take on this, from both sides of the counter.

SPORTSHOBBY,

JUST A REVIEW FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH MY POSITION IN REGARDS TO THIS SUBJECT:

DEFINITION OF A WISEGUY AS PERTAINING TO THE DISCLAIMER,"WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE THE WAGERS OF ALL PROFESSIONAL SYNDICATE BETTING GROUPS"

A PLAYER THAT PLAYS ALL HIS PLAYS ON MONDAY AND THEY ALL MOVE TWO POINTS HIS WAY AND HE WINS EVERY SINGLE GAME IS A "WINNER" AND NOT A WISEGUY AND WOULD NEVER BE THROWN OUT WHERE I'M SITTING BECAUSE I HAD THE WHOLE WEEK TO WORK THE GAME.

SAME THING GOES FOR A PLAYER WHO PLAYS IN THE MORNING AND ALL HIS PLAYS MOVE TWO POINTS AND HE WINS ALL HIS PLAYS IS A "WINNER" AND WOULD NEVER BE THROWN OUT WHERE I'M SITTING BECAUSE I HAD ALL AFTERNOON TO WORK THE GAME.

THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF A WISEGUY AS IT PERTAINS TO THE DISCLAIMER,"WISEGUYS NOT WELCOME"

FROM THE LEXICON OF REALITY:

WISEGUY-AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS THE ORIGINATOR OF A PLAY OR SOMEONE WHO IS WORKING IN CONCERT WITH THE ORIGINATOR TO MOVE THE ORIGINATORS PLAYS INTO AS MANY OFFICES AS POSSIBLE IN THE SHORTEST PERIOD OF TIME AT THE EXACT PRICE THE ORDER IS PUT OUT AT THUS EFFECTIVELY WIPING OUT THE NUMBER IN THE MARKETPLACE WITHIN 30 TO 60 SECONDS AND CREATING THE GAMBLING PHENOMENON KNOWN AS "STEAM".

HE DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS AND THATS ALL HE DOES.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE NUMBER HE IS LOOKING FOR HE PASSES AND DOES NOT PLAY.

NEVER TO BE CONFUSED WITH SOMEONE WHO IS MAKING THE PLUNGE OF HIS LIFE AND IF HE BETS ALL HIS PLAYS AT THE RIGHT SHOPS IN THE RIGHT SEQUENCE CAN TURN THE SREEN BLACK MOMENTARILY BEFORE THE SCREEN GOES BACK TO THE ORIGINAL NUMBER.

AN "ORIGINATORS" OR "WISEGUYS" NUMBERS NEVER GO BACK OR PAST THE ORIGINAL NUMBER OF THE ORDER UNLESS THE ORIGINAL ORDER WAS A PHONY TO SET UP THE "RIGHT" SIDE OR SHAKE THE FOLLLOWERS WHEN THE GAMES ARE RUNNING HOT AND THE "ORIGINATORS" ARE HAVING TROUBLE GETTING DOWN AND FILLING THEIR ORDERS...

AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED AND MOST OTHER PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS THIS IS THE ONLY DEFINITION OF A "WISEGUY" WHEN REFERED TO IN A CONVERSATION REGARDING THE BUSINESS.

OTHER DEFINITIONS:

SHARP-SOMEONE WHO PLAYS AT GOOD NUMBERS AND GETS THE BEST OF IT ON A MAJORITY OF HIS FUTURE PLAYS.

WINNER-SOMEONE WHOSE PLAYS WIN MORE THAN THEY LOSE ON A REGULAR BASIS AND WHOSE PLAY IS ACCORDED SOME RESPECT DUE TO THIS FACT.

REALITY

[REALITY]

Originally posted by reno:

Whether one is a player or a scalper, an integral part of success is getting the best number available at any given time. It is a shame that some sportsbooks penalize players for being astute shoppers. Books that boot players for being smart shoppers need to be exposed in offshore forums. The negative publicity they receive will rightfully discourage players from posting-up with them.

THERE A LESS THAN A DOZEN ORIGINATORS.

TACK ON A CREW OF 50 FOR EACH ONE MOVING THE GAMES FOR THEM.

TIMES THAT NUMBER BY 2 FOR SAFETY'S SAKE.

THAT'S 1,200 NOT WELCOME GUESTS.

THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PLAYERS.

WHAT % OF UNWELCOME PLAYERS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

SO IF A PLACE IS 100% ROCK SOLID AND REFUSES WISEGUY WORK AND YOU NEVER HEAR NO PAY OR SLOW PAY ASSOCIATED WITH THEM YOUR NOT GOING TO PLAY THERE?

YOU WOULD RATHER PLAY WHERE THEY LET THE WISEGUYS PLAY,WHERE YOU WILL NEVER BEAT THEM TO THE NUMBER AND WHERE IF THEY HOUSE GETS ROUGHED UP ENOUGH IE.DUNES,CARIBI,ETC.YOU MAY NOT GET PAID!

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

REALITY

[sportshobby]

There are many shops that take all sorts of action against any player that remotely resembles a winner or sharp player. And we're not just talking about booting the player - we're talking about phone stalling, severe limiting, different rules for bonuses and payout fees, etc, etc. I just wondered what everyone thought about that.