YES, they are the enemy!

[sportshobby]

Interesting that this thread would come down to the bad line issue, because there's much more than that. But since that's the topic, I have to give my opinion.

It's not right for a player to bet an obviously wrong line. But it's also not right for a sportsbook to leave everything under the sun to their disgression after the fact. There have been a lot of cases in which a sportsbook, in my opinion, took advantage of a player in a not-so-clear line error. Many have been reported here, e.g. cancelling a baseball wager that was 20 cents off.

No, it is not complicated - just post the rules, baby! Spell out how far off the line has to be to cancel the wager. Tell me exactly how you will try and contact me to tell me the wager is cancelled. And if there are any unusualy circumstances that would ever allow the sportsbook to cancel the wager AFTER the event, please let me know in detail.

The problem is now that there are no rules - these situations are handled however the sportsbook chooses.

And the sportsbook should not assume that the players all know what is a bad line, because they don't. Give a warning or two, the benefit of the doubt, until it's obvious that the player is really trying to take advantage of mistakes.

[REALITY]

Originally posted by sportshobby:


It's not right for a player to bet an obviously wrong line. But it's also not right for a sportsbook to leave everything under the sun to their disgression after the fact.

Give a warning or two, the benefit of the doubt, until it's obvious that the player is really trying to take advantage of mistakes.

"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO USE THEIR HEAD FOR MORE THAN A HAT RACK,AND THEIR IMAGINATIONS FOR MORE THAN TRYING TO RATIONALIZE WAYS NOT TO DO THE RIGHT THING, FOR THEIRS WILL BE THE KINGDOM OF WINNERS..."

LETS US ALL WELCOME BROTHER SPORTSHOBBY TO THE CHURCH OF HONEST BETTING ETTIQUETE.

A READING FROM THE BOOK OF SINATRA:

"FOR WHAT IS A MAN,WHAT HAS HE GOT,

IF NOT HIMSELF,THAN HE HAS NOT,

TO BET THE LINES HE KNOWS ARE REAL,

AND NOT TRY AND COME UP WITH WAYS TO STEAL...

I BET IT ALL,AND I STOOD TALL,

AND BET IT MY WAY..."

CAN I GET AN AMEN?

AMEN!

THIS CONCLUDES THIS MORNINGS SERVICE.

GO IN PEACE...

BROTHER REALITY

[REALITY]

Originally posted by Railbird:

That last guy who posted is the enemy,lets lock and load,seek and destroy.

Originally posted by Railbird:

A theif is a house breaker or shoplifter,not buying something or gamblimg something.It isnt like the punter has a say in the matter anyway,in the offshore game the BM is holding the cheese anyway,its his decision that is final.

A READING FROM THE BOOK OF KOSAR:

Originally posted by kosar:

I didn't catch your explanation about the airlines liability comment. If your going to chime in with (totally idiotic) solutions, at least have the balls to defend them.

If you think that buying something at a store that costs $1000 for $100 because of a clerks mistake isn't thievery, then you are as advertised.

Your attitude about 'the BM holding all the cheese' sounds pretty defeatist to me. It's strange, no WINNERS that I know have that LOSER mentality. If you win, the BM is your partner, nothing more and nothing less.

How did you get your name, anyways?

Let me guess, that's what all your 'boys' call you because you are so proficient at sticking your little, pink bony fingers up on the rail of the craps table to snatch a few chips when the blue haired ladies reach down for their purse.

Am I close?

AMEN,BROTHER KOSAR!

BROTHER REALITY

[marlowe]

I align myself with Reno in that I don't consider books to be the enemy. I play with a sportsbook not against it. I do play against all the other players wagering on the opposite side of the proposition I am betting on, although I also do not consider them to be the enemy but rather poor misguided players who have my sympathy. Bottom line is play with solid books who respect you and whom you will respect in kind.

[REALITY]

BROTHER MARLOWE,

WELCOME TO THE CHURCH OF HONEST BETTING ETTIQUTE.

YOU WILL HAVE A RESERVED SEAT NEXT TO MY DEAR FRIEND BROTHER RENO WHO IS ALSO A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING IN THE CHURCH OF HONEST BETTING ETTIQUTE.

THIS CHURCH ONLY SHUNS THE LESS THAN HONORABLE.

SCALPING DOES NOT PRECLUDE MEMBERSHIP HERE ONLY AT CERTAIN BOOKS...

WELCOME BROTHER MARLOWE...

BROTHER REALITY

[Hartley]

I tend to agree with Marlowe. The book's advantage is in the spread. Theoretically, if you bet one way then someone else will bet the other, hence giving the book the "profit" in the spread and they take this vigorish as a fee for mediating the bet between 2 groups of players. The problem of course is that books rarely get even action - especially on sports like baseball.

As for Chestrockwells' example of a book offering -260 when it's -210 everywhere else, I'd say that most books would not cancel the bet as it is not an "obvious" error. But I'm sure if you placed the bet and then called them to inform them of the discrepency they will let you keep the bet (provided you aren't emptying your account on the bet). If you place your normal stake amount they probably will probably allow you to keep the bet as a "thank you gift".

This is no different then any other business. Consider the following. You go to Wal*Mart and notice that an item is marked for $10 when it should be $30. You have 2 options

1- Go to the checkout and hope it comes up for the cheaper price.

2- Go to the customer service desk and tell them of the error in the price but also inform them that you plan to buy one or

If you do the first and it comes up $30 at the register then chances are they will tell you it was a mis-label and "do you still want it for $30". I suppose you could make a big stink and complain about false advertising etc. and cause a scene. They may give it to you for the cheaper price but they will make note of you the next time you come in.

If you do (2) then they will probably say thank you and give you the lower price for being honest and then proceed to fix the sign.

You decide which is better.

[chestrockwells]

Dear people,
The title of the thread was an attention grabber. Pls. let's not turn this into a "agree or disagree" on the word "enemy".
Hartley my example, as you put it, actually happenned only 2 nights ago. It wasn't something I pulled out of the air. Secondly, your whole analysis is based not only on the assumption that fairness is of paramount importance to everyone....... but also the fact that the book makes every judgement call from whether the line is "obviously off" to what constitutes your "regular wager". What shocks me is that you're comfortable with that!
Also, back to the specific occurence of the Boston game, I had posed the question to Jeff which he smartly chose to not address. Given the line available of -260 all the way to -200....... how far apart do these 2 numbers have to move for one of them to be considered bad. And keep in mind that this just happens to be based on the 4 outs I use for overnights. I have no idea if there was even more variance. Like I said before, all 4 outs are listed here on BW. So what's the magic number and why? The books will never spell this out, because spelling it out would constrict their ability to act when something falls outside the boundaries of their own definition. And we can't have that now, can we? Now I accept all this as a defacto situation that there's not much we can do about. But the whole point of this thread wasn't to argue this AGAIN, but rather to dispense with some of this (in my opinion) unhealthy notion that we and the books are somehow "partners" in this, and like I said earlier, that it's our responsibility to police ourselves and to call in bad lines or not bet too heavily when we see a questionable line. Jesus, why don't we tuck them in too..........and hold their hand as they cross the street?

[REALITY]

MR.ROCKWELL,

I'M SURE YOU HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THE 4 BOOKS YOU ARE REFERING TO.

I'M SURE YOU BELIEVE YOU WILL NEVER HEAR SLOW PAY OR NO PAY IN REGARDS TO YOUR BUSINESS WITH THEM.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT FAIRNESS AND INTEGRITY FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE COUNTER.

WITHOUT IT THE GAME SIMPLY COULD NOT EXIST...

REALITY



[This message has been edited by REALITY (edited 05-02-2001).]

[lillihammer]

sportsbooks ARE the enemy!

anytime two separate parties have a differing interest they are enemies. not so much as blood thirsty war-mongers trying to destroy each other but more like adversaries in a sporting event, and each is looking out for his best interest.

the recreational player who sends his money in regularly would likely not see the sportsbook as an enemy, but more like a bartender providing his fix of excitement. he gradually looses money and the book gets it's share.

the serious player, looking out for his best interest -- grabbing the right line -- is playing a different brand of sportsbetting that might be seen by a book as being in conflict with their interests.

this is war and the book is the enemy. my book reducing my internet wagering limit was the first shot. currently i feel no need to retaliate as i don't think i am hindered in any serious way. down the road this may no longer suit me and i might make a direct enquiry as to why my screen comes up with a reduced wager limit. who knows what they might say -- could be glitch. i might find better and simply retreat or i might find a way to win more with my limit where it stands. all depends when i feel the enemy is affecting what's in my interests.

as for whacking a +18 when the line should be -18 -- ever heard of two gentlemen named McSorely and Brashear?

[cecil]

You guys are missing the point again, in my opinion. It is not hard to post the right lines at all!!! It takes one proof reader. I know if I ran a book, I could make sure that every line was accurate at all times, and if by chance this ever didn't happen, it would be my responsibility to do the right thing, and pay for the mistake. WHY SHOULD THE CUSTOMERS ALWAYS BE PAYING FOR THE BOOKS MISTAKES??? Some day this will all be a mute point, and bad lines will be a thing of the past. We will get there sooner by not tolerating books who have alot of bad lines. Play somewhere else!!!

[hart attack]

amen brother! make a bed...then lie in it! make a mistake posting your numbers, get whacked a bit & then you will be on top of it for the next time...that is how you should run a business.

[REALITY]

Originally posted by hart attack:

amen brother! make a bed...then lie in it! make a mistake posting your numbers, get whacked a bit & then you will be on top of it for the next time...that is how you should run a business.

AND I GUESS YOU WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO VOLUNTEER TO WHACK THOSE MIS-POSTED NUMBERS INTO LINE.

YOU'RE NOT CHEATING THE GAME YOU'RE PROVIDING A PUBLIC SERVICE BY INSURING IT'S FUTURE INTEGRITY...

CAN YOU SAY RATIONALIZATION???

REALITY

[chestrockwells]

Reality,
You speak of "fairness and integrity" on both sides of the counter. I'm certainly not going to disagree with that idea or ideal. The problem I have, is that fairness can often be ambiguous and can certainly be affected by which side of the counter a person's on. Furthemore, in cases where there are disputes, as to what would be a "fair" resolution, only one side of the counter has all the power to determine what they regard to be "fair" and to what level of "integrity" they choose to live by.

[Railbird]

Im am greatful to the bookie that they provide an opponent,Ali needed Fraizer,and other players are my opponents too,but I have a huge edge and all the intangibles working for me,ie Art of War,Wheatgrass 3-2 change-up,Flutie,Sun Tzu,progression analysis,Grapefruits and Pacific Ocean,early bird gets the worm.Now who has a chance,its not them.

[REALITY]

Originally posted by chestrockwells:

Reality,

You speak of "fairness and integrity" on both sides of the counter. I'm certainly not going to disagree with that idea or ideal. The problem I have, is that fairness can often be ambiguous and can certainly be affected by which side of the counter a person's on. Furthemore, in cases where there are disputes, as to what would be a "fair" resolution, only one side of the counter has all the power to determine what they regard to be "fair" and to what level of "integrity" they choose to live by.

MR.C.,

I CANT ARGUE THAT,"only one side of the counter has all the power to determine what they regard to be "fair" and to what level of "integrity" they choose to live by."

I WOULD ONLY ASK YOU TO CONSIDER THIS.

THESE BIG-OFFSHORES HAVE SPENT MILLIONS TO MARKET CUSTOMERS AND MILLIONS TO BUILD THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO SERVE THEM.

DO YOU THINK IT IS PART OF THEIR BUSINESS PLAN TO POST MIS-POSTED LINES AND GIVE THEMSELVES AN EDGE IN THE GAME BY DELETING THOSE WHO TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE "MIS-POSTED" LINE AND LEAVE THOSE WAGERS THAT WERE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE "MIS-POSTED" LINE?

DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO RISK THEIR REPUTATION FOR INTEGRITY WHICH IS THE MAIN REASON THEIR CUSTOMER BASE IS WHAT IT IS BY LOOKING TO SET UP AND LITERALLY RIP OFF THEIR CUSTOMERS WITH SUCH A SCAM?

FROM YOUR POSTS I BELIEVE YOU ARE AN INTELLIGENT AND FAIR PLAYER SO I WILL TAKE THE LIBERTY OF ASSUMING YOU DONNOT BELIEVE THE ABOVE STATEMENT.

THESE BIG OFF-SHORES WITH ESTABLISHED REPUTATIONS HAVE INCREDIBLE HONOR AND INTEGRITY.

CONTRARY TO WHAT MANY POSTERS HERE WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THEY LOSE AND LOSE BIG.

WHEN THAT HAPPENS THEY SHOW YOU,THE PLAYER, THE BIGGEST HONOR AND INTEGRITY A PLAYER CAN ASK FOR, AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT.

THEY GO OUT AND BORROW EVERYTHING THEY NEED TO INSURE,"PAYMENT ON DEMAND" IS A GIVEN AND NOT JUST A MARKETING SLOGAN.

GIVEN THE CHOICE OF "HONORING MIS-POSTED LINES" OR HONORING THE PROMISE OF "PAYMENT ON DEMAND" WHICH WOULD YOU CHOSE?

REALITY