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  • Am I Wrong?

    Just got off the phore with a "Spiro" (Ill keep the name of the Sportsbook to myself because they said they would send me my money back give me back the amount of the future bet I had made because they were getting upset over the argument I was giving them) who was telling me:
    "Im gettin very upset here." I had been telling him basically that he was full of shit that he was calling a future bet on a player no push if that player withdrew from the Masters ( Hal Sutton) before it started (pulled muscle or something) anyway what was getting them upset was a question I put to them that they could not answer: "If Tiger Woods broke his arm in a car accident before the Masters and back in February you put a thousand dollars on him and there was $100000 total in futures bet on Tiger in his, lets say, Spiro's Sportsbook, that they wouldnt automatically refund all the bets on Woods if he had to withdraw? I told him no Sportsbook on the Net would do that. It would be Sportsbook Revenue suicide. If they kept everyones money on Tiger no one would ever sign on with them again, or any book that would do such a thing to "trusting customers". So Spiro got on the phone with his boss and they had a conversation and then he come out with this "OK if that happens then the odds go down on everyone else right? What if that happens and the fact that Mickleson was 15 to one 2 months ago but now hes 5 to one and he wins- am I suposed to eat that?"
    "Yes. Youre the book offering the gamble. When I make a future bet the implied understanding between the book and the customer is that "the player plays or at least starts the sporting event or nobody , the sportsbook or the gambler, wins that bet. You dont pay if the player doesnt start in the Masters. Its like naming the pitcher in baseball- if he doesnt throw a pitch the wager is a push, the guy dont tee off- its a push.
    Well they got so upset with me they canceled my account. Dont want nuthin more to do with me. All because I dont see it their way. Its a shame really. I probably would have lost it back to them. I just wanted the money placed back into my betting account. It was more than just the money for me though. It was the principle of the thing that matters most. Frankly, I couldnt see anyone taking that position on what was , to me, a simple case of an automatic refund . But, like they say its a jungle out here Ive gambled with alot of sportsbooks but this was just too much. Sometimes the bullshit gets so high you need wings to stay above it. Am I wrong???

  • #2
    I believe the same book had futures on a couple of hundred horses for the ky derby. Would you expect a refund if you bet a horse that didn't run?

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    • #3
      It's kind of like any futures bet. If you bet Knicks to win the NBA championship, you don't get your money back just because they didn't PLAY in the championship, right?

      I think players need to completely understand the rules before making a play like this.

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      • #4
        Tripleplay, to answer your question: Yes, DEAD WRONG! That is one of the disadvantages of making a future play. J-blade's example of the Derby futures is a perfect example. Read the rules.

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        • #5
          jlpblade- poor analogy - a hundred horses for a 20 horse field is only a "possible" field of contestants. The Masters had a listed field of contestants to start the contest. If the Sportsbook names the Golfer and puts odds on him, that is a definite starter, not a gigantic field of hopeful horseflesh.
          Dragon - even worse analogy! - come on guys - im a very intelligent guy - you gotta do better than that if your gonna convince me that Im wrong, ethically wrong, the rule issue having been conceded. Hey ever go to those gambling Las Vegas Nights the churches used to put on. They had a rule- if you tie the dealer, they keep your bet whereas in and real Casino you are automatically refunded. Im not using this as an analogy. Im saying that just because its a rule you dont have to accept it. I wouldnt play that game and Im just saying that if they rip you off you dont have to like it. The Books are screwing us with this rule. But were not talking about rules here now. Youre trying to justify a rip-off, not a burn, nor a bad beat. What has a future bet on the NBA Championship got to do with my argument??? A future bet of this kind is still undetermined. But as long as you mention Team Futures- many years ago I had a bet on the A's to win it all. I had flown to Las Vegas during the All-Star break, as was my modus operandi in those days. To get the best odds in 117 degree heat is a bitch. To go from casino sb to casino sb in the hot July sun was brutal. I had bet 4000 at 5/2, and stood to get a return of 14K after it was done. I also had 2000 on SF at 5/2 for a 7000 return so that was already won. Suddenly the EARTHQUAKE. All the Sportsbooks said all said the refunds were there if the World Series was canceled. they would not keep the thousands of dollars each sb has on them to win the Championship. Because after a while the WS continued I flew back in November to collect it all.
          billymac- Read the rules? Let me ask you guys a question. One that Spiro touch. Ill state it one more time. I challenge anyone to answer it with a eye to the "rules". Spiro I said you guys are pretty big your book that is you probably have thousands bet on Tiger to win it all. say at least a hunderd thousand? Ok he said he didnt argue with that figure. I said what If woods is in a car accident on his way to the Masters with Hal Sutton's car and tiger gets a broken arm and Hal withdraws as well. Are you telling me you wouldnt refund the future bets on Tiger Woods? Some guy back in February bets 1000 on Tiger some in March bets 10000 come on now. Maybe fairplay is so lost on the new types of gambling establishments sprouting up all over the net thesedays, that the new gamblers just accect it as bible. But if thats the rule I would love to see Tiger Woods have to withdraw from the tournament because some guys who run a scumbag ripoff net book get a guy to wager 1 million on Tiger Woods to win, and then try to kidnap or say detain if you will maybe some phoney or real cops involved. Or say his dear mother or father suddenly dies that morning. While hes deciding if hell play or not, I have to decide whether Ill kill myself or not? Im not talking about me just those Tiger guys out there that bet him everytime there is a Major. To the guys who are "letting it ride" and stood to lose it all. For them I speak ouy. So they hold him until teeoff time, then let him go. He comes to Augusta with this for an excuse only to have the TD tell him rules are rules so. You are late for your tee-time therefore youre diqualified. Rule are rules. And all that money bet on him goes right in to the till, huh? In a pigs ass it would. But why should we have to oink? Just another reason why this rule stinks...

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          • #6
            tripleplay

            I agree with you, the previous anologies have been pretty poor.

            It would be more like if you made a bet on the Mariners to win the world series. Then, there was a plane crash that killed all the players and the team decided to forfeit the rest of its games...

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            • #7
              Bet stands and it loses

              I believe that the bet would stand and you would lose the bet.

              The Kentucky Derby analogy is the best one and the Mariners one is a joke. The Tiger Woods one illustrates that futures odds are put up with a certain theoretical hold percentage. No refunds.

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              • #8
                A very tough call, as I lean towards the horse analogies,

                however, precedent was set when season futures got refunded on D Earnhardt in a race in which he started and sadly failed to finish.

                So perhaps if your question was posed, what if Tiger..........
                Last edited by Sodium Pantethol; 04-19-2002, 06:31 PM.

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                • #9
                  Just my 2 cents. I think the answer to any future bets is very simple. For any future bet to be valid, the team or player must start. If the team or player can not participate in an event or events then the bet is nullified and money should be refund. The analogy that one of the member used about picking a team to win the World Series or NBA Championship is not a very good example. Because let say if you pick Florida Marlins to Win the World Series... and MLB decided to contract or pull the team before the season start then the future bet is off. If the Florida Marlins start the season, even for just one game.... then the future bet stand eventhough the team forfeit the next 161 games. To sum it up, player or team have to start the event for future bets to be valid.

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                  • #10
                    The analogy I was trying to make was that in horse racing, there's hundreds of horses with a price on them for the derby. Along the way to the Derby, things happen. They get hurt, they lose races and so on. You could call all those races leading up to the Derby the regular season and the Derby is the championship. Same in sports. If you bet a team to win the Super Bowl and they get racked with injuries and don't actually PLAY in the Super Bowl, you don't get your money back.

                    The problem here is most people are ignorant to the rule. Myself included.

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                    • #11
                      Dragon- Yes , but hundreds of horses do not a starter make, even if there is a price on them. My complaint was that in the Masters field EVERY player listed in the futures has qualified and is slated to start the event. Truth be told, I would have no problem with them holding my bet on Dale E., since, technically speaking, he did start the event, he just didnt finish. Hal Sutton did not start the Masters. He never hit one shot. This situation is more similar to the Final Field of 20 starters at the Derby. THEN -as as Make It Happen has said if the player or horse is scratched and does not start it is a no-bet and should be refunded back to the bettor.

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