PayPal...bigger scammers than any sportsbooks...

[Boomer]

I am in the process of turning over to my attorney all the documentation regarding my PayPal account in an attempt to get thyem to pay me my money which they have stolen using their "restricted account" status on my account.

I had been using Neteller for as long as they've been around with no problems whatsoever, except of course, when the sportsbook didn't didn't do their part and put the money in or didn't have it. Never, ever however have I ever had a problem with Neteller themselves.

PayPal has made numerous phony requests requiring more "documentation" via fax. I have no idea why they chose me to persecute. I do know I have sent them passport photos, drivers licenses, numerous bank statements and credit card copies, all proving I am who I say I am.

I have made multiple to requests to have them contact my bankers (I have many), my credit card companies, etc. all in an effort to prove I am who I am. I have have enough of their nonsense and am reluctantly turning everything over to my lawyers (the amount is only $2,000), in an effort to retrieve not only my funds but hopefully to retrieve attorney's fees from these bastards.

DO NOT SEND PAY PAL A NICKEL OR TAKE THE CHANCE AS I DID OF THEM ARBITRARILY CONFISCATING YOUR MONEY.

I have jumped through hoops for them for weeks now and not once will they let me speak to a manager or will they tell me why they are holding up my money.

When Aces Gold went under I told myself I wouldn't play with anyone even for small money for fun. At this point these bastards took all the enjoyment out of gambling in sports all together. I'll do all my gambling back in Las Vegas and in Mexico again. None of these companies can be trusted. Who needs the aggravation.

[Blowfish]

My account is on restriction and has a lousy $4.50 in it. They are asking for fax documentation as well. With all the new money related laws out there, there has to be a valid reason. Check out this link:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr.../index-outside

These guys are audited by PriceWaterhouseCoopers (they're not in trouble, yet) and all their information is public since they are traded on the NASDAQ. Not that I can defend them since my account is restricted, but my guess is it is gaming-related.

[ShiftySheik]

I try to avoid using Paypal whenever possible but it it the cheapest way to transfer between books. A few books require you to take payouts through Paypal if you posted up with Paypal. I really hate that policy. It scares me that I may have to take a large payout through Paypal.

[The Prophet]

I've had my share of problems with PayPal, and just today had my account restricted for the THIRD time in a year. The funny thing is that in all of my conversations with them they don't really care that I make frequent deposits too and from offshore gaming establishments. I've even come out and asked them if that was why the account was getting restricted and if I should refrain from making gaming related transactions witht the account to prevent future restrictions. They said it wasn't a problem.......of course they could tell me that and actually have a policy otherwise, but they've always appeared to genuinely not give a rats ass about my gaming related transactions.

My current restriction was due to the fact that "another account was flagged with identical information to my own". While this was apparently a great shock to PayPal it was not a big surprise to me--the other account was my WIFE'S account! In all fairness, they seemed actually apologetic that this occured and said they'll have the restriction lifted within 24 hours.

The whole restriction rigamarole notwithstanding, I'm generally happy with PayPal. They've really got to get a handle on this process, however, or they're going to lose a lot of customers that generate a lot of revenue for them. I'd say that well over 90% of the complaints I've heard about PayPal involve the restriction process in one way or another. One suggestion I'd make is that after an account has been restricted, documentation provided, and the restriction lifted that they flag that account to make sure its only restricted *again* under the most extreme circumstances. If I was recieving payments from "[email protected]" I could understand being restricted. The fact I a) have a wife who b) has the same address and c) has a PayPal account doesn't really strike me as potentially sinister.


JRM
THE PROPHET
www.netprophetsports.com

Originally posted by Blowfish
. Not that I can defend them since my account is restricted, but my guess is it is gaming-related.

[Latin King]

this alone should be reason enough for sportsbooks to stop using paypal. or at the very least, make sure they take neteller. why do some of the books appear to favor paypal??

[Blowfish]

PayPal is backed by about 20 of the country's largest corporations and NETeller was small startup company that has had to make it on its own. Not to mention PayPal is traded on the NASDAQ market, thus monitored by the SEC (which could mean squat after Enron), and NETeller had to move their offices to Costa Rica because Canadien authorities were giving them heat.

[The Prophet]

When PayPal works (ie: when your account isn't restricted) it works well. Last week, for example, I requested a payout online from Carib via PayPal right before I left the house to go out and run some errands. I got into my pick-em-up truck, and checked my PayPal account on my cell phone. The payout was already there (kudos to Carib for that) and I was able to run by the bank and withdraw it with my PayPal debit/ATM card. Elapsed time from my withdrawal request to having the $$$ in my pocket--15 minutes.

The books probably also like it due to the negligible cost involved in using it. PayPal merchants pay a small fee on incoming payments (though its much less expensive than refunding Western Union or FedEx charges) and nothing when they send money.

Every gripe I've heard about PayPal involves the restriction process. That's with good reason, since there's no way to figure out what will bring about a restriction or how to prevent it. It all seems very arbitrary. Even worse is the inability to get any sort of information or human contact after your account is restricted. When PayPal works, however, its a pretty slick way to send and receive money--especially if you have the PayPal ATM and can immediately pull your cash out of your PayPal account.

JRM
THE PROPHET
www.netprophetsports.com

Originally posted by Latin King
this alone should be reason enough for sportsbooks to stop using paypal. or at the very least, make sure they take neteller. why do some of the books appear to favor paypal??

[The Prophet]

PayPal update

I just got off the phone with PayPal re: my latest restriction. The woman I spoke with couldn't have been more pleasant, competent and helpful. I have a hunch she was in a supervisory position of some sort and not an entry level rep.

Anyway, here's the deal why my account got restricted--my wife already had a PayPal account. No problem with that. The problem arose when she tried to open a *second* account under her business email without closing the first one. She also used my credit card (she's an authorized user) instead of her own credit cards, no doubt in an effort to get me to pay for all of her Ebay purchases. That's not a big deal to me, since I end up paying for it anyway.

So what tripped the alarms at PayPal was a concern that it might be an unauthorized usage of my credit card and/or an identity theft situation. I guess I should point out that my wife didn't change her name when we were married (she still uses her maiden name) so it looked even more fishy.

The woman I talked to was pretty cool and on top of things so I asked her if it would minimize future restrictions if I stopped sending and receiving money to offshore sports books. She *claimed* that it wasn't a problem and shouldn't increase the liklihood of future restrictions. I then tried to set her up by asking her a loaded question: "So are online casino transfers treated like any other purchase?" They're not, since American Express won't allow their cards to be used for online gaming sites and any attempt to fund a sportsbook account with AmEx is blocked. Anyway, she told me the exact same thing which sort of surprised me. I figured she'd either say "yes, they're just like any other transaction (which they're not)" or come up with some other lame answer. She told me the truth (at least in my experience) which I was pretty impressed by.

Now, it could be the "company line" that there's no problem with using PayPal for gambling related transactions when in reality its not the case. The feeling I've got from my various communications with PayPal is that a)they want as many different merchants as possible to accept PayPal and couldn't care less about the nature of their business and b) they don't want people to steal from them. Other than that, I don't think they have an agenda against a particular type of business or customer. IMO, they're just paranoid as hell about security and need to get some system in place for targeting crooks while not causing problems for legit users.

I still have a hunch that the overwhelming number of PayPal restrictions aren't triggered by the use of the account at gaming sites, but by some other situation that may be *related* to that and trip some sort of security alert. Clearly its a problem--if they want PayPal to be accepted at offshore books they need to understand the realities of how money moves back and forth between their customers and the books--but I don't get the impression that they're arbitrarily targeting offshore books and the people who patronize them.

The woman is supposed to call me back in the A.M., and I'm going to tell her more about the problems that many seem to be having vis a vis online gambling. My hope is that she'll either serve as a contact, or provide me with a contact, that could be of assistance in resolving some of the problems that others are having.

JRM
THE PROPHET
www.netprophetsports.com

[Boomer]

JRM,

Any contact would be appreciated. I'm going through WORSE aggravation than I was even a week ago, meanwhile my money is just sitting there.

A laywer is ALWAYS a last resort but these people seem to be be arbitrarily asking for documentation, getting it, then thinking of something of something new to ask for, just to aggravate me.

You wouldn't believe the massive list of documents I've already provided to prove I'm me.

[Cons]

I always try to maintain a zero balance at Pay Pal. I've had my account locked twice and my trust in them is gone.

[The Prophet]

Believe me, I would believe you.....I've sent them everything but a sperm sample and at this point it wouldn't surprise me if they asked for that.

Here's my take about what's going on with PayPal. In just 3 years they've gone from 0 customers to 16 million customers in a new business with no one else in the marketplace that they can emulate or learn from. Unlike your local bank, where you have to walk in and at least deal with a human anyone with a pulse and an email address can open a PayPal account. I've read that they get in excess of 25,000 new signups a day. My guess is that their customer service staff and infrastructure is overwhelmed.

At the same time, security is obviously a legitimate concern for them. I've received "Make Money Fast" scams that attempted to set up a pyramid scheme based on PayPal's $5 referral bonus, heard about crooks using software to open PayPal accounts in bulk (they've implemented protection against this, however), along with old-fashioned scams like merchants that don't ship goods, bait and switch schemes and who knows what else. That's not even considering even more serious use of PayPal accounts to transfer money from terrorist organizations and so forth.

I'm imagining that in trying to maintain the security of their system they're erring on the side of caution. At the same time, as a completely new transaction method they don't have a real idea of what indicates that a crime or fraud is occuring and what is just the result of normal transactions. Obviously with the volume they're dealing with they can't monitor all 16 million+ accounts on an individual basis, so they have to use some sort of automated profiling system to screen for irregularities. Since they're making it up as they go along, legitimate customers get zapped as often (or likely more so) than the bad guys.

Which leads us back to my first point--once restricted, your account has to be reviewed individually by a human. Since these humans are understaffed and overwhelmed, this is where everything bogs down. The process slows to a crawl, mistakes are made, communication gets difficult, and other problems result. From the sound of it, the security people don't tell the customer service people what's going on and inter-departmental communication is a big headache.

None of this excuses PayPal's customer service deficiencies, of course, but from a business standpoint their problems are at least understandable. At this point, I doubt that any market segment is being singled out--and particularly one as clearly lucrative as the offshore gaming industry. At the same time, however, its obvious that along with online porn, casino and sports betting sites are favorite targets for fraud--including stolen credit cards and, I would imagine, bogus PayPal accounts.

From a business standpoint, why *would* PayPal want to single out legitimate use of its service for online gaming? Their mission statement says that their product quote "seeks to serve businesses and individuals underserved by traditional payment methods." Since credit cards are running scared from online gaming, it would be foolish for PayPal to turn their back on a lucrative and "underserved" market. To do so would be to give up a significant competitive advantage.

Now I'm not disputing that a lot of people--myself included--have had problems with PayPal and that once you get the "restricted" designation that its a pain in the ass to get everything resolved. My guess, however, is that is a result of the inherent inefficiency of bureaucratic corporate institutions and not any sort of "anti-gambling" corporate policy by PayPal.

Anyway, I'm rambling.....I'm going to see if I can find someone in the corporate higher-ups at PayPal and let them know about the sense of general unrest in the sports betting market re: their company. I seriously doubt that they'd want to alienate a lucrative market at this point in their corporate development and will be amiable to some sort of resolution of what appears to be a growing problem.

I'll post an update early next week.........

Jim
THE PROPHET
www.netprophetsports.com

Originally posted by Boomer
JRM,

Any contact would be appreciated. I'm going through WORSE aggravation than I was even a week ago, meanwhile my money is just sitting there.

A laywer is ALWAYS a last resort but these people seem to be be arbitrarily asking for documentation, getting it, then thinking of something of something new to ask for, just to aggravate me.

You wouldn't believe the massive list of documents I've already provided to prove I'm me.

[Boomer]

Well, having achieved nothing but getting myself frustrated and furious, I am embarking on hiring an attorney this morning.

One of the outcomes besides getting my $2,000 is to educate and frankly, do as much damage financially and legally to PayPal as I possibly can.

I would hate for anyother gambler to have gone through what I am going through and I will update everyone on phone numbers to call, hard addresses to mail (they will only provide P.O. Boxes), and any remedies that may expedite getting your money from these crooks.

I would advise, until PayPal stops "restricting" accounts, thus in essence stealing your money as they give no time frame or reasons for doing so, avoid them like the plaque.

Neteller has always been a fine source for me and I've never had a "neteller-caused" problem, even back in the days I put some rather large dollar figures in there.

Step 1 this morning: put in phone call to attorney. I will advise all as this fiasco occurs. Most importantly to me is why, why, why was I singled out. I just don't get it and frankly, that question is driving me nuts.

Why PayPal stole my money (restricted my account) with no reason and and why Neteller I can continue to use on a regular basis with not one single solitary problem.

P.S. Go Lakers, best series with Sacramento arguably of all time.

[ShiftySheik]

Boomer, There are several class action suits against Paypal for those who had their money stolen. www.paypalsucks.com
Good luck.

[Boomer]

Shiek, Thanks you SOOOO much for that "Pay Pal Sucks" site. It helped provide real addresses and more phone numbers for my lawyers. Thank you so much.

In the meantime I would suggest ALL SPORTSBOOKS CEASE AND DESIST USING PAY PAL. The industry has enough of a black eye upon it after all the Aces Gold type closures without having a money transfer company that isn't beyond reproach or questionability.

If there is a site called "Pay Pal Sucks" then this is obviously not a isolated incident but rather the normal way they do business.

Reminds me of a chldren's game, one for them, one for us, one for them, one for us...

[The Prophet]

Boomer--

Has PayPal given you a reason--even a half assed one--of why they restricted your account?

JRM
THE PROPHET

Originally posted by Boomer
Why PayPal stole my money (restricted my account) with no reason and and why Neteller I can continue to use on a regular basis with not one single solitary problem.

P.S. Go Lakers, best series with Sacramento arguably of all time.