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Las Vegas is not Disneyland, Part 4

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  • Las Vegas is not Disneyland, Part 4

    In this post, I will focus on the subject of steam movement. I will divulge who generates the big steam moves and explain what the ramifications of these moves are. First, however, some historical background may prove useful.

    When I arrived in Vegas in 1983 or 84, there were not that many sportsbooks in town--maybe 10 or so. The Strip was not yet fully developed, and empty lots were still available along it. Places such as Little Caesar's and the Mirage were not yet a reality. Also, many casinos, such as the Frontier, Tropicana, and Desert Inn, to name just a few, did not yet have sportsbooks.

    The Computer Group (Billy Walters) was just emerging as the dominant force in sportsbetting. Sportsbettors quickly realized that that Computer Group plays won, and many of them jumped on the bandwagon. As a result, and because there were so few sportsbooks available for getting down, incredible steam movement was created. For example, I remember basketball sides commonly moving more than 5 points.

    Although there had been steam moves before--generated by touts and from back East--the Computer Group dwarfed all of that and established a New Order in the sportsbetting world.

    Since the Computer Group could not get down the desired amount of money on games at the original lines--since everyone else jumped on their games as soon as they were alerted--they turned to organized money-moving/middling operations, which were just emerging at that time, to help them. Not only could these operations, via runers, place bets at the sportsbooks, they also had access to numerous private bookmakers throughout the country. In essence, a nationwide network was established, the result being that virtually every Vegas sportsbook and large private bookmaker was hit simultaneously when an order on a game was given by the Computer Group. This ensured that the Computer Group would get the lion's share of original lines on the games they bet. The Vegas money-moving/middling operations would keep a share of what they bet for the computer group, and usually come back on the other side and try to middle the games. That's what the two groups I worked for did, and that's what my group did. My group didn't work directly for the Computer Group. We worked for them indirectly through a big Eastern contact, a guy named Bernie who is now deceased, who fronted us a couple hundred dimes for money-moving purposes.

    Billy Walters, as far as I know, is still the largest money-mover in sportsbetting. However, it would be a misnomer to now call him the Computer Group. Over the years, he has diversified, acquiring a stable of top handicappers in the various sports. He pays these handicappers $200,000 in cash for their picks in a particular sport. Regarding this, I have to tell you a story regarding one of these handicappers.

    The handicapper decided to get his $200,000 offshore. He had his partner drive his car with the money hidden in it, to Florida, where, according to plan, the partner would, in increments of just under $10,000, get the money offshore. However, the partner suffered a heart attack while driving and crashed the car. Unconscious, He was taken to a hospital. When he recovered and went to the junkyard to find his car, the money was gone, never to be recovered.

    As far as I know, the biggest generators of steam movement in baseball are the Kosher Boys, Billy Walters, and the Las Vegas professional poker players, who also fancy themselves as sportsbettors. In addition to indirectly moving money for the Computer Group, my operation also used to move money directly for one of the poker players. Billy Walters probably bets the Kosher Boys plays in baseball and also may have his own handicapper for the sport. I know the guys in Vegas who are the national money movers for the Kosher Boys. In fact, one of them used to work as a runner for my outfit, and the ******* still owes me 3 dimes. Anyway, the Vegas Kosher contacts place one call--everyone who moves money is on a group cellular--digital, of course,--and virtually every sportsbooks in Vegas and offshore is then hit simultaneously. How much is bet and how much the line will move depends on how highly the play is rated.

    Do the Kosher Boys always win and are they worth following? The Kosher Boys do not always win. They have had losing seasons where they stop playing before the season ends. In the long run, however, they do win. In my opinion, their edge, as pointed out by Don Best, is so small that jumping on the bandwagon only makes sense if you bet large amounts and can get the original line.
    Good luck!

    Last year, the Koshers were really hot for a few months, and the sportsbooks lost. A shortsighted and greedy sportsbook that negatively reacted to this short-term trend by going to a 20-cent line was Carib.

    Before the digital age, we used to scan the airwaves and listen to everything that came across on voice pagers in Vegas. That way, we knew virtually everything that was going on. Digital, of course has changed that reality. If OJ had had a digital cellular phone, he might still be down in Mexico. Digital has been a godsend for the privacy of sportsbetting money-movers.

    Is big steam movement, whether generated by the Kosher boys or others, always intelligent. If you believe this and are a bandwaggoner, then this ol' sportsbetting guru has a mantra for you: Rocky Coppinger. Repeat "Rocky Coppinger" continually-- whether you are sitting, standing, walking, or lying; whether you are awake, sleeping, dreaming, or even sleep walking--and you will eventually, if not in this present lifetime, then in a future incarnation, attain sportsbetting Enlightenment: the profound realization that steam can be stupid.

    A couple of weeks ago, the Minnesota Twins, a crummy team featuring a quality pitcher, Brad Radke, were playing at Baltimore. Baltimore, a crummy, over-rated team, was starting Rocky Coppinger, a career minor leaguer, who, in his one start had generated a 13.00 + earned run average. The game was around pick. Sure enough, the steam, in pure stupidity, came on Coppinger. Naturally, Minnesota won. After the game, Rocky Coppinger's ERA was over 30.00, and I don't think he's started again.

    But all is not lost. Dr. Reno has a cure for this stupidity: a pre-frontal lobotomy-- that he will perform for free. And, if by chance, the Kosher Boys originated this move, Dr. Reno promises to cover up the cranial operation scars with yarmulkes.

  • #2
    Thanks for all your interesting stuff over the last month. GREAT Reading.
    I thought the Kosher Boys stopped betting a few years ago. One of the members, or heads of it, was Danny Kramer, a big Owner in the Harness Racing Scene here in New York who was suspended a couple of years ago, along with Herve Fillion, for race fixing. I thought Kramer was in Jail and the Koshers were no longer active.

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    • #3
      Reno, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge with us. Your posts are always very informative.

      If you haven't done so already, please jump over to the BookiesHell posting area. You'll note that we are attempting to set up a members weekend and it looks like it will be in Vegas. It would be great if you could attend. Perhaps you could also give us a few pointers on great rates or possible comps for the boys.

      Thanks again!

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      • #4
        Guesser, the Koshers still play. Like I said, I know the guys in Vegas who are their direct contacts. These guys give out the plays to everyone in the network. On a particular play, they only make one call, since everyone in the network is on a cellular group connection.

        From what I heard, years ago, when the Riviera was a major sportsbook in Vegas, the Feds raided the Kosher's safe deposit box and found 14 million dollars in it. I think the Koshers had to give 2 million of it to the Feds.

        lakrfan, thanks for the invite to Vegas. However, I don't care for the town--I never did--and I avoid going there unless I must.
        My idea of a vacation is a tropical beach with warm water, not the plastic superficiality and traffic congestion of Vegas. Regarding comps, I have no knowledge. However, when I lived in San Diego, my friends and I would go to Vegas and stay real cheap on weekdays at the Imperial Palace. We would then go skiing at Mt. Charleston, which is within an hour's drive from Vegas.

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        • #5
          Reno, count me now as one of your biggest fans. Your informational and true stories about sports wagering's growth from an extremely knowledgable insider's point of view is fascinating and valuable.

          Please keep them coming.

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          • #6
            Another great post from Reno. Tell me Reno, do you know of anybody who consistantly does better than 60% on their picks? I mean year-in, year-out in any sport, even lefthanded Chinese vollyball. How 'bout NFL and NBA? I know the touts don't do it, anybody on the inside?

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            • #7
              I've got a friend at work who does not bet but is Kramer's cousin. Kramer paid big bucks to lawyers and in fines but got off scot free. I'm sure he is still betting because once it is in your blood, as we know, you got it forever. Kramer really killed Yonkers Raceway by fixing races there. Something tells me he wasn't doing that great betting or he wouldn't have resorted to fixing, but then greed is the name of the game in this arena.

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              • #8
                Reno, it would seem to me that there would have been a lot of thefts and ripoffs with all the money being passed around on "steam plays." Gambling has got to be a bit like I've read the drug business operates. Even honest guys can be corrupted when they spend too much while ahead and then their own accounts go south. How much money was lost that way and do those losing it look at it as a cost of doing high volume business? What about enforcement mechanisms, i.e. heavy muscle?

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                • #9
                  Reno,

                  I am new to this site, but i have been reading some of your postings. I read about what you have said about the Kosher boys. While they are still around, they are not very respected or followed. (at least not for the last 3 years) I have personally heard figures of the amount of money they have lost is in the multimillions! Their plays hardly influence the line at all anymore, so getting their numbers is not hard! Their plays are just horrible! Any one who is following them would have better luck with one of Jim Feist's taut services.

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                  • #10
                    Reno... You forgot to mention the *******s who put out steam games, wait for the line to move, and then bet the other way.
                    Patience and Money Management - The Key to Winning!

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                    • #11
                      Ok I have some questions, and pardon me if I come across as naive or not too with it.

                      Q#1 What constitutes a game as a "steam" play..

                      Q#2 If it is a steam game and only the guys in the know bet on it, how is it a steam to the public.

                      Curious to hear the answers....

                      Also as I asked in another post, if you are knowledgable in this area, share some tips on how to be a winner.. besides the tip don't gamble.

                      My question is what do theses guys that have these steams do to make them a steam. Do they buy information, do they study computer info all day or pull names out of a hat.

                      I think we are all more curious for more of the inside stuff, if you can reveal it or even want to.

                      Hope I didn't offend but looking into the future as we look in the past makes a little sesnse if we can all help one another.

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                      • #12
                        LQQker, No handicapper I know of has ever hit 60+% over an extended period of time. I know guys who have hit over 60%, even over 70%, believe it or not, in a particular season. One year we got Chuck Sharp's NBA totals from one of his runners, and the plays hit over 70%. The following year, however, they only hit around 50%. Mike Lee and Huey Mahl, who used to write for High Roller, a handicapping publication, always talked about the fact that if a player could consistently hit 57% at a -110 lay, he would soon become a millionaire. According to the Kelly (a mathematician)Criterion method, which postulates exactly what percentage of your bankroll you should bet on each play, based on what percentage of winners you project to hit, a player expected to hit 57% winners should, if I remember correctly, bet 10% of his bankroll on each play, and on each play expect a 9.1% investment return. One's bankroll, if one consistently hits 57%, would just grow and grow at an outrageous rate. The problem, however, is consistently hitting 57% winners.

                        At least in sportsbetting, because of the low vig, one has a fighting chance. Guys like Billy Walters and Chuck Sharp became multimillionaires through betting. In betting horses, old timers tell me, that because of the high vig, no one they know has ever won big legitimately. The only horse players who have hit the big time, did it through inside information on fixed races, which happen all the time.

                        Macarty, according to my friend, who I just talked to, the poker players are currently bigger money movers in baseball than the Kosher Boys. There is also a 3rd group that has emerged that is huge, but no one I know is sure who they are. I was told that the huge steam moves last baseball season were generated by the Kosher Boys. However, since I don't move money for the Kosher Boys, I can't claim with absolute certainty that that they weren't the poker players' plays. Who's play was Rocky Coppinger?

                        Regarding Jim Feist, do you remember Larry Ness, a long time Feist handicapper? I don't know what happened to Larry, since I no longer see him listed with Kelso Sturgeon, Chip Chirimbes, etc. Anyway, Larry Ness always used to hang out at Gary Austin's Sportsbook. Larry would always make us laugh when he would say, "I wonder who I picked tonight." What a joke! He was just a good front man because he could bull**** good. He didn't even know what plays Feist would give out under his name! By the way, hasn't Feist had his name legally changed to Heist?

                        Jeff K, it's no secret that Billy Walters and others put out false plays to move the line in one direction, and then come back heavier the other way. That's why blindly following steam movement is not real intelligent.

                        DeacDoug, a few guys ended up out in the desert when I lived in Vegas. Does anyone recall Jolly Joe Sarno, who was a ticket writer at Austin's? He ended up as fertilizer for cacti. He probably stiffed the wrong guy.

                        Regarding rip-offs, I could write a book just about the one's I have suffered. There are so many I know about, the list is almost endless. The biggest one I know of pertains to the biggest middling/money moving operation--which I used to work with--in Vegas. A guy named Cowboy Dan, who I actually befriended when he first came to Vegas, ripped off the operation for 453 dimes, and then disappeared. If they ever find him, he will no doubt keep Jolly Joe company as cacti fertilizer.

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                        • #13
                          You'll find most of these answers in other posts.

                          A "Steam" game generally originates with one of the very few "syndicates".

                          A "group" will play hundreds of games over the course of a given season.

                          Take a typical baseball card.The group will put out one play at a time.The play goes out to all the movers,simultaneously.The movers then start banging the play at the number it was given out at.They'll play it offshore,in Vegas,and stateside.

                          Those that follow the feeds will easily pick up the play,and try to get down at the same number,either to play the games themselves or for scalping purposes.

                          In otherwords,the whole world is trying to play the same game."Steam".

                          Most of the people that follow will inevitably lose,for various reasons.

                          For one,more often that not,they'll be getting the worst of the number.Over the long haul,5 cents here and 10 cents there will kill you.

                          Another reason they'll lose,is they won't get EVERY play.The group may be successful over the course of hundreds of plays,but you as the follower will only be playing some of those.

                          Maybe you'll get lucky and play more winners than losers,maybe not.It's a crapshoot.

                          For that matter,you'll more than likely be playing some of one groups plays,and some of anothers.

                          Not to mention the possibility of the wrong side being given out on purpose.

                          The only way to make sure you get every play is to move.

                          As far as being a "mover",it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the job.It's simply a matter of being organized,and being able to work fast.With a little practice,anyone can do it.In many instances however,you'll have to use your own cash.

                          Not long ago,a very well known group was basically actively recruiting movers.They almost went as far as to take ads out in a sports publication.

                          As far as spelling out how to be successful in this forum,it wouldn't make sense for anyone to do that.Too much competition out there,although in my opinion,you could spell it out for some guys,yet they still wouldn't be able to use the information.You either get it,or you don't.

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                          • #14
                            Freak, a "steam" play is any play that moves the betting line quickly and strongly in a particular direction. It can be generated by a tout, injury information, or a big betting operation with lots of bandwagoners.

                            My betting advice to beginners is:

                            1) Get a catalog from Gambler's Book Club (702-522-1777) and start reading books on sportsbetting. The best book on sportsbetting that I ever read, titled "Sportsbetting" by Jim Jasper is, unfortunately, out of print. I use a modified version of Jasper's system for betting baseball. It is based on making a predicta-score for each game, and then converting that to a moneyline. However, whereas Jasper converts the predicta-score to a moneyline by valuing a run at 50 cents, I prefer to convert the predicta-score to a moneyline by using Bill James' pythagorean theorem formula. My friend, who is a computer programmer, generates the plays each day. The system is winning so far, but not doing as well as last year. I also bet games where I see value, and I never pass up a good scalp. For example, A couple of weeks ago I laid the Giants, with Brock pitching, at -103. The game, incredibly, went to -133. At that point, I said, screw the bet, I'll just scalp the game. So, I took back +123, and when the dog came in, I made money. I also do other stuff that I won't divulge, because it will educate bookmakers.

                            2) Shop for value. It always amazes me how many guys take any old line. I now have 18 outs, and plan on adding more. Get all the outs you can.

                            3) Set up a bankroll--what you can afford to lose--at the start of a season and bet a conservative percentage of it--say 4 to 5% on each play. That way, if you're winning you're betting more and if you're losing, you're betting less. Do not chase your money. Do not load up on "bail-out" games. If you lose, which is no disgrace, go back to the drawing board and get ready for another season.

                            4) If you can't pick winners, follow someone who can. Look at Billy Walters. He became a multimillionaire by following the right people. Some wiseguys have a natural feel for what the right betting line should be on a game, and can instinctively sense a weak line. Others with a mathematical bent find holes in the betting line by creating betting systems that generate a better line than the linesmaker. Avoid angles and trends. They tend to rely on "small numbers" that are insignificant. They almost never win in the long run. Mort Olshan of the Gold Sheet said he never found any such system that work. The Monday night home underdog angle has been successful over the years, but it generates very few plays. The only really good angle I ever found (and I checked out hundreds that I read about and heard about by pouring through spread books)--and it no longer works--was in the NBA. And that was betting against a team that wins at home and plays on the road the next day.

                            To summarize: the secret to success in sportsbetting is the same as any other endeavor: intelligence, hard work, and self-discipline.

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                            • #15
                              This is some of the best stuff ever!!! I love this site and Reno has my repect for shareing his knowledge with us wannabees. Players like me soak up any info they can get, and true players release very little infon that might be used against them. Reno I can't type worth s#*t and I am thankful you can. No person ever helped me. but through my passion for sportsbetting I have arrived almost to were I have a feel for the moves and bet the weak lines and hold my bet or come back and scalp a little. I have moved on and have a career, but nothing will ever touch my devotion to this.

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