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Las Vegas is not Disneyland, Part 6

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  • Las Vegas is not Disneyland, Part 6

    In this post, I will explain why Las Vegas sportsbooks have evolved--or, in the minds of many, devolved--into their current state.
    Relative to this topic, a brief history of bookmaking in Vegas may prove enlightening.

    Sam Brown, the venerable Stardust scalper/middler, had been around in Vegas long before me. According to Sam, for a long time baseball totals weren't even moved on a moneyline. If someone bet the limit on, say, over 7 flat, the BM would jump the total to 7-and-a-half flat. Well, Sam told me he made huge bucks siding 7. He would go over 7 all day and come under 7-and-a half. Back when baseball was low-scoring--before juiced baseballs, the shrunken strike zone, weight training, corked bats, and steroids--7 was a very common number for baseball totals. And 7 is worth more than the 20 cents in juice that Sam would risk on his siding attempts. Eventually, but not until Sam had more money than God, BMs figured out that 7 was worth more than 20 cents, and baseball totals were then moved on a moneyline.

    Even though baseball totals were moved on a moneyline when I worked in Vegas, the moneyline served only as an adjunct to moving the number. Back in the 80s, you would never see, for example, 9 under 50. Once you got to 20 or 30 cents, the BM would jump the total half-a-run. Old school bookies--such as Monty at CRIS--still do this. New school bookies prefer to stay on the same total number and instead move the moneyline. I believe--and someone correct me if I'm wrong--that the new school style of moving the moneyline rather than the total number line was initiated by the Mirage (who I also believe introduced the concept of moving NBA totals on a moneyline).

    Relative to baseball sides, until Gene Mayday of Little Caesar's introduced the penny line to Vegas, lines were always moved in 5 cent increments (except for Sam Brown, for whom the Stardust would move the line in 10 cent jumps to set up his scalps). Old school bookies--such as WSEX--still use the nickel line on their baseball sides. Many bookies are a combination of old school and new school methods of line movement. For example, the Hilton, still uses the old school nickel line on their baseball sides but the new school moneyline method on their totals.

    Which of the methods is best? Relative to this question, I am a Taoist. In other words, he who knows does not speak. I have 100 goals in life that I hope to achieve before biting the dust. And, believe it or not, not one of them is educating BMs.

    It is time for me to hit the sack. I'll continue this post within the week.

  • #2
    reno - I'm patiently waiting for your critique of sports book managers to see how little I really know. Seriously, I share alot of the same beliefs you and others have in regard to the lack of knowledge exhibited by many sports book managers. But, in lumping all sports book managers into the same category,(empty-minded suits) you do a disservice to many of us.
    Eventually, Vegas will end up with 2 or 3 sportsbook "hubs" with satellite books in all the other casinos. Then, you will have a situation where college kids(supervisors) get paid to void tickets, hand out meal comps, and call the hub to get an approval on a large wager. So, if the lack of oddsmakers now seems obvious; wait a few more years! LVSC will supply the lines, the suits won't question the source, and the whole city will basically have the same odds on all games.
    Geez, I wonder why I would give all that up to go back to graduate school??

    Comment


    • #3
      hey Reno, thanks for sharing your experiences
      here. (imo you're correct about the
      Mirage instituting the changes in the money-line) Having covered allot of
      ground, you haven't mentioned the
      subject of touts yet. Where do imagine
      the tout business going with the
      advent of the internet?

      w.s.

      Comment


      • #4
        would love to hear Reno's thoughts on
        the offshore scene...more to the point,
        how it evolved (who, where) and which
        books are in it for the long haul. You mentioned "monty" being the sportsbook
        manager at Cris. Is this the biggest sportsbook in the world? What is the
        difference between a place like wsex,
        or wwts, or bowmans and a place such
        as Cris. AND, is a William Hill or
        Victor Chandler comparable to any
        of the south american books?? All
        comments welcome.

        w.s

        Comment


        • #5
          grubbie, I'll address your post reply when I continue with "Las Vegas is not Disneyland, Part 6."

          WhiteShoes, I see the Tout business going global. The big difference will be that, whereas Touts now give out one side of a play to customers east of the Misissippi and the other side to those west of the Mississpi, in the future they will give out one side to those north of the equator and the other side to those south of it.

          Seriously, I don't pay attention to touts. But just like every other business, they are all over the Internet.

          Regarding your questions about offshore books, Oddswiz and Sting, who specialize in the field, know more than me. There is no way for me to know which offshore book is the biggest, although someone told me that CRIS has 30,000 customers. Plenty has already been written at Bettorsworld about the books you mention, just go through the old posts and reviews.

          Comment


          • #6
            I see the sports-betting industry
            expanding to other nations with
            foreigners betting more on american
            sports and vice versa. (sumo wrestling
            anyone?) Incidently, I feel Canada
            will legalize sports-betting and allow
            las vegas style betting very soon. I'd
            lay odds on it!

            Comment


            • #7
              White Shoes....I'd love to be able to pass along every piece of info I have on the offshore industry,but my hands are tied somewhat.

              Aside from people in the industry reading this forum,there's also people who want to hurt this industry reading this forum...ie the authorities.

              Christ,I don't even like to mention who takes Western Union in here.

              But let's see what we can do here.......

              As far as the 1st offshore books,hopefully Dana Corbo from Don Best will add a little here.His father started one of the very first offshore books.Might have been the first,years ago.

              Another one of the first books is the place referred to now as CARIBI or CRIS...I believe they were 1st in the DR,by a different name.Maybe Dominican Sports,I'm not sure.It was started by a guy names Sacco,who many remember being on 60 mins,saying how he was the biggest bookmaker in the country.Not long after that showing,he was busted,and did time in jail.

              This goes back at least 12 years.There may very well have been smaller operations than his before that as well.

              Next up came Bowman International.Oringinally known as American Football Pools,they were simply a parlay card office.They then started booking straight bets on american sports,only you had to pay a tax on all winnings.At this time they changed their name to American Sports,and then Sports Action International,before finally changing their name to Bowmans,their owners last name.

              They were around 12 years ago or so as well,only they weren't offshore at all.They operated out of England for the first few years.They even started booking tax free while still in England,before finally making the move to Maurititus.

              Many in the industry credit Gary Bowman for bringing the industry to the level it's at now.

              When you say "the biggest sportsbook in the world",we have to clarify that you're referring to strictly american sports.A place like William Hill can certainly be said to be one of the largest bookmaking companies in the world,but american sports wouldn't be part of that equation.Yes,they now book american sports,but really don't have their act together yet,and certainly don't have anywhere near the handle in american sports as a place like CRIS.

              CRIS/CARIBI would have to be one of,or the biggest bookmaking operation,booking american sports,in the world.Their business extends far beyond the business they now get from being "commercialized".

              It wasn't long ago,that they did absolutely no advertising.Within the last year actually.They only recently started going after the internet guy,or the guy that reads Sports Forum...that should tell you something about their clientel....they are a bookmakers bookmaker.

              It should be noted that their is still a part of this industry that operates like the old days.....credit.That's a story for another day.

              It should also come as no surprise that the guys who run some of these major shops,WWTS,CRIS,etc.etc.,are all very good friends.As far as bookmakers go,these guys are on a completely different level than the rest.They're sharp as hell.

              There was once a question asked of Lem Banker by the Gold Sheet in an interview.They asked him if he could pick 5 or 6 guys to sit down to dinner with,who would they be....he went on to name Jimmy the Greek,and several others......If that same question were asked of me,I'd pick the guys who run each of the major shops,Caribi,Skbook,etc.etc.....you could learn more in an hour with these guys than you could in a lifetime elsewhere.

              When I was in Antigua recently,I had the privlidge of having dinner with Roger from WWTS.The man is literally a walking history book of sportsbetting,both offshore and Vegas....Guys like that are the backbone of this industry.

              Comment


              • #8
                -
                Last edited by Don Best; 03-17-2003, 12:43 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Don Best - thanks for your information. I'd been hearing about Ron Sacco way back in the early 80's. Does Ron Sacco own CRIS/Caribi? Where is he now?

                  I totally agreed with you that Sacco is the "godfather" of offshores.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    sounds like most agree with the idea
                    that Cris is "the biggest" sportsbook
                    in the world. (whatever that implies...
                    ..most customers, take, profit, # of
                    wagers) I don't believe it even matters
                    really, except with the notion that one's
                    money is safer with a successful operation.


                    Why the offshore industry came into being
                    is no secret though. There's always been
                    1000 times as many bookmakers in America
                    than in Nevada, so why not move off shore
                    to a free trade area and book sports? So
                    Nevada and the offshore industry have been
                    competing (more so every year) to the point
                    where people who don't live in Nevada can
                    bet and not have to feel like their doing
                    so illegally.

                    It's to the point now where one can
                    feel pretty safe (say as safe as
                    walking down the Strip with 20% of a
                    bankroll) with some of these offshore
                    books. How many books should be in
                    operation though. 20 max?
                    (how many separate books were there
                    in Vegas before mergers took place?)

                    It's kind of surprising to me though,
                    how some of the
                    larger bet firms from Britain didn't get
                    started with the American market in a bigger way during the 80's when betting was
                    becoming big business.

                    Nowadays the competition for customers
                    is coming down to what
                    makes a sportsbook good and in some cases, different. (years doing business,
                    lines, odds, payment and payout
                    options & promotions, etc.) I mean,
                    why would someone want to send money
                    to a relatively new sportsbook which
                    is a carbon copy of another sportsbook who've been in business for years. This has mostly
                    to do with different bet options and lines
                    that don't move on air most of the time.

                    I think Vegas is going to have to catch up
                    now with offshore. (if they even want to?)
                    and that there's plenty of room for a
                    number of different sportsbooks to do
                    business and prosper.

                    heck I can see this and I'm an
                    average dude who just wants to get
                    a bet down and not have to travel
                    to a remote desert for the privledge!

                    w.s.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      White Shoes...nice post..

                      You ask how many is enough...that's a good question.I'd be curious to hear others opinions on this.I've always been of the belief that there was only roon for so many solid books.How many?I don't know.I would have to say 30 or less.

                      But then most people don't understand just how big the sportsbetting industry is.There's so many players out there that still play locally,and haven't even discovered offshore books yet.Not to mention that the internet is STILL in it's infancy.I think I read somewhere that around 60,000 new people find their way to the internet each day worldwide.How many of them are sportsbettors?How many will become sportsbettors?

                      One thing I wouldn't be surprised to see,is larger books taking over smaller books.Why not?It happens in every other business.The banking industry,the telephone companies,why not offshore bookmakers? For that matter,we've been contaced in the past by large firms looking to boost their client base by buying books looking to get out of the biz.

                      Of course the direction everything takes depends quite a bit on what happens legally........

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ya, the question of whether the
                        U.S. is going to start blocking
                        internet betting is looming. I think
                        any attempt to do this will be nearly
                        impossible. I'm having as much fun
                        watching our government leaders bungle this issue as I am with their deft handling
                        of other problem areas such as YK2, the IRS, CigarGate, Foreign Wars, and Nuclear
                        secret spies ) Lets face it, a bunch
                        of guys sending in their 3 team football parlays is not much of a problem.

                        Taking the internet out of the equation
                        would probaly only slow offshore booking
                        in any case. (probably causing less
                        places to open up, but still allowing
                        several of the bigger place to operate
                        by telephones)


                        w.s.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Solid Books?

                          30 is not many for all the people out there in the world, depending on the size of them.
                          Difference of scale between a sportsbook and a listed company type operation like TABCORP etc., so if they all became chains, that would be different?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yeah....30 is not many at all if you take into consideration the whole world....I guess I was referring to strictly american sports,which would still make the 30 a very low figure.I also failed to take into consideration the growing popularity of betting on american sports worldwide,not to mention the growing popularity of betting on soccer and other sports by Americans.......

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Reno I get the feeling you're a little
                              older than most of us, mostly from
                              your perspective on things. You mentioned
                              100 goals before "biting the dust". I hope
                              this doesn't mean you're sick or anything.

                              Anyhow, your Taoist message is well recieved.
                              Though we all aren't exactly posting are own
                              personal maps to perceived hidden treasures,
                              there's a lot to talk about. Heck, even
                              daily picks aren't too telling more most.

                              My point, oh ya....I guess it's that there
                              are tons of different areas and different
                              viewpoints to consider under the umbrella
                              heading of "sports-betting". Looking forward
                              to future installments.


                              w.s.

                              Comment

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