Ashcroft Confirmation

[Geekinstein]

Well, you know something tonk? The poor, misunderstood "Christian" right brought it down upon themselves. They decided to get involved in politics on the right hand side of the spectrum (St Jimmy Carter was a Demo, remember?) instead of staying in church.

This country was founded on separation of Church and state, so that non-Christians don't have to be railroaded by folks with peculiar points of view. We have significant "minority" religions in this country and we don't need Jerry Falwell setting up a defacto religious government that wants to place cameras in our bedrooms to make sure we aren't having "improper" relations with "improper" partners.

...ever heard of the inquisition? Go read about it.

[Jeff K]

Hey Tonk... So Reno sent out a death squad and pumped the church with gas. Thanks, you just proved my point about low IQ's.

[tonk]

O.K. you two have convinced me. When should we start building the gas chambers and concentration camps?

After all, people who have different beliefs than the left-wing deserve to die. Right?

It's funny that when Geekinstien tried to come up with some crime that the religous right commited he had to make up a story about Falwell and cameras and then site something that one particular group did hundreds of years ago.

Hey, what about slavery? We better watch these dangerous white people they may reinstitute slavery any day. Nice logic.

Jeff, maybe I have a low I.Q. as well, please help me with this question.

George W.Bush has a B.A. from Yale, a M.B.A. from Harvard, fluently speaks two languages, sold his last business for a quarter of a billion dollars,has won every election he has ever been in, and according to the polls, won every debate.

What part of that constitutes stupidity?

[Geekinstein]

tonk:

I'm a Registered Republican, please don't call me a left winger.

I don't want to persecute, prosecute, or anything else to you zealot types. I want you to leave me alone and get your ilk out of the political process. We Repubs are fond of saying we're gonna get "government out of people's lives." You don't do that by dictating your belief to folks.

So, yeah, I get tired of the wingnut "wing" of the party trying shove "God's Truth" down the rest of the Party and/or Country.

Go read some history. You'll find that some of our finest (bloodiest) wars were fought by Christians on both sides for their religion(s). THIS IS WHY OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!

...and I gotta say this. If you're such a fine C-boy, what the heck are you doing in a betting forum?

[Jeff K]

Tonk... It's funny you asked, because I just heard on TV that Bush applied to Texas U, but was rejected. His DADDY got him into Yale. Can you imagine that? A prominent Texan couldn't even get into Texas U. Wonder what his high school grades were?

Geek... Don't you know that Tonk just happened into this forum this past week. If you ask me, he's a regular with a new handle.

[MarkDel]

Wow, has this thread gone way off topic.

Jeff K.,

I've been down this road with you before, but you need to get your facts right before you pop off about an issue. George W. Bush was not turned down at Texas coming out of high school, he was in fact rejected by Texas Law School after graduating from Yale with roughly a 3.0 GPA. While it is not hard to get into Texas' undergraduate program, their law school is one of the finest in the country, nearly on par with Ivy League law schools like Harvard or Yale. Bush subsequently went to Harvard for his post-graduate study and never again applied to law school after being turned down by Texas.

Geekinstein,

I totally agree with you that the christian right has been its own worst enemy, and probably the best friend of the Democratic Party in that they scare moderates away from the Republicans. As an atheist (quasi-agnostic) I have no great love of religion, but I think you're last statement to Tonk was a little extreme. Why would his being a christian mean he should shun gambling forums? I for one have spent many good times at Church Casino Nights that raised much money for good purposes. Not ALL religious people are anti-gambling fanatics even if the vast majority of them are. But you are VERY correct in saying this is not a Democrat versus Republican issue and that's why you have not seen the usual left wing suspects in here to dispute the things I said earlier about how both parties are a potential enemy of the gambling industry. If you listen to words over deeds, then the Republicans are the bigger threat, but if you look at actual legal action as opposed to rhetoric, it's the Democrats who have led the real fight against the offshore situation.

[Geekinstein]

MD: Like I said, I had to say it.

Maybe it's having a prayer vigil outside my trailer door by a bunch of hypocrites who had realized I hadn't their particular brand of zealotry (when I was a pup).

Not sure.

But when some clown compairs me to a group of Nazis gassing Jews, something snaps and I get a wee bit testy, as my Scottish forebearers would say.

[MarkDel]

Geekinstein,

Yeah, I see what you mean. The analogy was extreme, but I don't think it was directly aimed at you. Just the same, don't you think there IS a current double standard against the christian right? Personally, I can't stand the holier-than-thou bastards because they are always trying to push their brand of morality on me, but I do feel very strongly that they are treated very harshly while other religions are given a free pass. In the Presidential race, look at how Joe Lieberman was able to go around spewing his religious nonsense, but John Ashcroft is a villain for doing the same. It's not at all fair even if I personally hate both Lieberman and Ashcroft.

[Geekinstein]

MD: OK, But Liberman's crowd is trying to prop up Israel, they ain't trying to get laws changed re: reproduction rights when to pray (schools, games, etc). I know a number of Southern Baptist types who said that abortion Doctor in Pensacola "deserved to die." Maybe it's Falwell's smarmy face that jacks me up.

I'm a live and let live guy, really more of a libertarian. And I really, really get tired of any religious agenda trying to run things. In point of fact, I do believe the set up of separation of church and state is the correct way for a country to be set up.

BTW, I'm not a Christian, but I do have my beliefs and one of them is to not let the zealots capture my party. I just want them to get the heck out of politics (the way they once were).

[Jeff K]

MarkDel... Sure, Bush had a 3 GPA, and if you believe that, I have some beautiful Florida waterfront property I'll sell you.

"After freshman year, he gathered up his Andover pals and lived with the same group in Davenport College for three years. A mediocre student, Bush majored in history, with grades that were apparently not good enough for admission to the University of Texas law school, which turned him down as an in-state applicant two years after he graduated. Bush has not given permission to either Andover or Yale to release his grades."

[guidoS]

Originally posted by Geekinstein:
MD: OK, But Liberman's crowd is trying to prop up Israel, they ain't trying to get laws changed re: reproduction rights when to pray (schools, games, etc). I know a number of Southern Baptist types who said that abortion Doctor in Pensacola "deserved to die." Maybe it's Falwell's smarmy face that jacks me up.

I'm a live and let live guy, really more of a libertarian. And I really, really get tired of any religious agenda trying to run things. In point of fact, I do believe the set up of separation of church and state is the correct way for a country to be set up.

BTW, I'm not a Christian, but I do have my beliefs and one of them is to not let the zealots capture my party. I just want them to get the heck out of politics (the way they once were).

GEEK:
i have no trouble believing u r not a christian!

but u keep telling tonk to read some history, so read some urself! this country was founded by christians, on christian principles, and the separation of church and state was meant to avoid a ruling church like in England! Freedom of religion was in the first amendment...not freedom from religion! The founding fathers would be appalled at not being able to pray to their Creator in public as they did then and we can not do now!

remember, these laws u claim that the religious right are trying to get changed were just recently changed by the left! school prayer in the mid-60's, abortion on demand became legal in 73!

dont tell Christians to get out of politics!! they have every bit as much right there as u do!

and dont tell me some Christian/pro-life person told u that some abortionist deserved to die, because they are by definition not Christian/pro-life!

u claim to be a live and let live kinda guy.. but because my mom and dad may have conceived me outta wedlock, they (she) now would have the right to kill me before i was born. i have to object! Life is a precious gift from our Creator (and whether u believe in Him or not, does not affect His Existence) and should be sacred! thankfully i was born before 1973!

I will agree with u that certain well-meaning Christians should spend their energies elsewhere instead of trying to save me from gambling! Gambling is not wrong by itself..it can lead to wrong, but so can cars for example...should we bann those too?

end of sermon...back to my pix! guidoS

[tonk]

Thanks Guido, great post.

I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand that freedom doesn't just mean people are only free to agree with their viewpoint.

Geekinstien keeps talking about Jerry Falwell, excuse me but what part of our government does Jerry Falwell hold?

When is the last time our government tried to put a camera in your bedroom?

When was the last time our government tried to make you go to church?

He keeps reponding with REAL HATE to IMAGINARY threats. He says Christians should not be allowed to participate in politics, pray in school, or even participate on gambling BB's. He practices the same hatred and religous intolerance that the NAZI's did and then gets offended when someone points this out.

If the religous right is so all powerful why isn't the Kyle bill already law?

Who spoke out against it?


In our society, gambling is thought of as evil. Church bingo games are good, lotteries are good, "investing" in the stock market is good, but gambling is evil.

No politician from either side of the aisle is willing to be gamblings' advocate.

With so little opposition why couldn't the all powerful,dangerous religous right get one little bill passed?


Could it be that,
a. They really don't have much influence.
b. They really are not dangerous.
c. They have just been made scapegoats.
d. All of the above.

To be honest, I can't tell you the last time I was in a Church, but I do know that the people running the homeless shelters like the Salvation Army are not people I need to be afraid of.

Geekinstien also says we should look at history, what about Joesph Stalins, godless workers paradise. It is conservativly estimated that he killed more than 20 million people. What about the godless workers paradise that exists today in China.
The number of people killed by that regime could not be numbered.

The bloodiest chapters in human history have been written in the last century. They were mostly written by societies that oppressed religous freedom like the NAZIS and the COMMUNISTS.

Why on earth do we keep following their lead?



[This message has been edited by tonk (edited 01-22-2001).]

[Cons]

I don't see what the point is about Bush's grades. Who gives a shit about grades? I had a 4.0 my first semester (dipped a bit after joining a fraternity) and the whole grade thing really didn't appeal to me. It's what you bring out of it that counts, not the little numbers that are assigned to you.

On a side note, Bill Gates went to Harvard and was booted from there without finishing his degree at this prestigious institution. Now let me see you call him a moron...

Bush winning the election was a very positive step for the US. Sure, I'd like to see someone like Nader make a change but politically he has little backing. Also remember that Bush has one vasty experienced and loyal adviser that will guide him through the early years: his dad.

As far as putting religion into this, it was Gore and Lieberman that ran around pretending to be deeply reigious in their attempt to coerce people of faith on both sides to vote for them. I recall Gore running around and chanting "God Bless America" and stuff like that, with Lieberman doing the same, claiming that he's never worked a Friday/Saturday in his life and that he doesn't intend to when he gets elected. It's these two that went around trying to claim an aura of piety about them.

[Jeff K]

Hey Cons... Gates left Harvard of his own accord to start Microsoft, and wasn't booted. It's one thing to be religious, and another trying to change laws because of your religious beliefs. Take a look at Iran. They had an open society, and now the women can't even hold decent jobs. This is what happens when the religious nuts take over.

[Geekinstein]

Well said, Jeff K...

...and with a lot more precise words than these wingnuts.

I'm outta here, I think there's a prayer group forming up on my lawn!