Announcement

**Jeff** · 07-10-2002, 03:54 AM

Now I've seen just about everything. They're flat out stealing your money. This is no different than the low life players who charge back. The book here, gets to take a free shot at the player. The player wins, they don't pay. They books wins, they keep the money. Dispicable.

**sportshobby** · 07-10-2002, 05:24 AM

Bring back the clink and throw them in it!

**Iluvsports** · 07-10-2002, 06:08 AM

Okay, I have no clue who or what BLACKRHINO is ...but man or lady, what does it take for PEOPLE that BROWSE thru these forums to quickly recognize good books...

I know INTERTOPS will curtail you ..but they PAY
OLYMPICS PAYS

I am sure BOG DOG and others pay too.... I just have not been fortunate enough to collect.

I know BOWMAN paid in the past......

Why not just stick with the one s that pay, I m sure the bonuses and other stuff may not be that great ..but they PAY ...thats all that counts in this INDUSTRY.

**Dragon** · 07-10-2002, 09:30 AM

Dog, how did you stumble on this place? I never heard of them. Are they affiliated with any other well known books?

**Black Rhino** · 07-10-2002, 10:40 AM

Response from Black Rhino

From Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook.

It seems that there are people on various on-line gaming forums who have chosen to complain that Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook is allegedly not paying players.

Currently, we have suspended 3 people from our site for violating our terms and conditions, rules put in place to make for fair play for both the players and the casino.

Legally, we cannot and will not go into specifics of each case, but will give a brief overview of these matters in this letter.

The 3 players suspended have all placed numerous wagers at our sportsbook, not just a few wagers each as suggested by one of the complainants. Our security looks at several variables to determine if our terms and conditions have been violated. All 3 players exhibit several tell tale signs of professional techniques. When this occurs, we also confer with other online sportsbooks with regard to individual players, without giving more info on the player than we need to. Just as land based casinos and sportsbooks share information with each other with regard to certain players and techniques, as do on-line establishments.

As an example, one player placed 117 bets with us in a 30-day period. After further investigation, it was found that he had also placed wagers on 3 other sites during the same time, on the same lines, opposite outcomes. We do not need to investigate any further in these cases. When we contact security at other sportsbooks and the first 3 we talk to tell us they are facing the same problems with the same player, it�s evident that the player is more than likely wagering at more than the 4 sportsbooks we�re aware of. With more than 400 verified wagers placed in a 30-day period, it�s safe to say that player is a professional gambler

Rule 7 of our terms and conditions states:

�Player's participation in the Gaming System is personal and not professional.�

After all, we are a charitable casino and hosting a gambling site specifically catering to professional gamblers does not work well with our efforts to protect endangered species.

We don�t allow players to have 2 accounts with us, nor do any other casinos and sportsbooks. Players who do are immediately banned. Also, it�s been practice in the industry, since it�s inception, that if a casino can prove a player has an account with another casino and is cross betting in a similar fashion, they are banned and their account is closed. This happens regularly, most players who are caught will only be up $50-$100 dollars because of ongoing security. In Black Rhino�s case, we�re new and our security team has only recently reached full strength. As such, 2 of the players had managed to accumulate sizable wins before being noticed. Only because of the size of the wins has this been aired in public. We have attempted to be taken advantage of for not fully enforcing our terms and conditions, and now when we do, players violating those rules have taken exception. Had we noticed these violations earlier, and shut down these players� accounts when their wins were not sizable or they had no wins at all, it�s doubtful we would be defending ourselves right now.

There are numerous patterns that our security watch for when we red flag an account. For obvious reasons, we�re not about to divulge these patterns; we�d just be teaching others how to attempt to cheat on-line casinos and sportsbooks.

It�s important to note that we are a business and, just as any other business, be it land based or on-line; we are subject to attempts of fraud. We have put in security measures and monitor players in an effort to deter attempts of violating our terms and conditions.
When anyone signs up at our site, they must agree to the terms and conditions, if they choose not to, then we, as a business, must protect ourselves.

It�s also important to note that we are forwarding each players deposits back to them, with the exception of one player who profited $6990.00 from violating the terms and conditions. We have not asked that player for those funds to be returned and at this point have no plans on doing so.

As a new casino and sportsbook, we have made a few mistakes and will more than likely make more along the way. As an example, during the Stanley Cup Playoffs, we had some players attempt to take advantage of an erroneous line. In our terms and conditions, that all must agree to before becoming a member, rule 8 states:

�Player acknowledges that full freedom from errors or incompleteness is impossible to achieve with respect to computer software. Should Player become aware that the software contains such error or incompleteness Player undertakes to refrain from taking any advantage whatsoever thereof. Moreover, promptly upon becoming aware of such error or incompleteness Player shall notify the Company in writing.�

We had approximately 50 players wager on that erroneous line with in a 20-minute period. If we had enforced our terms and conditions at that point, we feel that it would have been unfair from the players perspective. It was, after all, our mistake. The error was noticed almost immediately and, instead we took the high road, acknowledged our mistake, and in fact, canceled their bets, returned their money and gave them an additional 10% of their wager.

Black Rhino Casino has been using Futurebet software since our re-launch on May 25th, 2002. Our site has been well received and these complaints are the first we�ve been made aware of. Other than these cases, we�ve had nothing but praise. It would be a shame if a few individuals who decide not to follow our terms and conditions could jeopardize the integrity of Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook.

All financial transactions at Black Rhino are handled by iDollar. iDollar is not responsible for holding any players funds, we are. Black Rhino makes the final decisions on all payouts or freezes.

Our customer support is also handled by iDollar. We stand behind our customer service 100% and feel that it�s the best in the business. We have noticed attempts by one person posting to diminish the integrity of our live chat. When someone contacts live chat with unusual questions and immediately goes on the defensive, we�ve asked our customer service to be a little bit more rigid. Again, this is the first complaint we�ve seen with regard to customer service, the typical comments we hear include the words �excellent� and �superb�.

We will always continue to monitor our casino and sportsbooks for signs of professionals attempting to play by their own rules. As such, somewhere down the road, more players will have their accounts frozen while we investigate their play patterns and wagers. Now that our security is up to full speed, all account investigations should be handled in a more expedient manner. Hopefully, we can be more proactive in spotting these individuals and these cases will not merit a discussion in public forums.

Please keep in mind that these player�s complaints are unique and do not reflect the general memberships� experience at Black Rhino. All other members of our site have been paid their winnings in a timely fashion when requested. As stated previously, we all must follow the rules. Only when one party chooses not to, do problems occur. Part of our mission here at Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook is to provide the highest possible level of customer support and service, while offering the best software available. We�re quite confident that we�re living up to our player�s expectations; we care about our players needs.

We fully apologize for the confusion and negative thoughts these cases have created on the various gaming forums. We welcome your comments and suggestions, as always, to contact@blackrhinocasino.com We thank you for your understanding in these matters and invite you to visit our site, but please, for the sake of all players, the animals and the industry in general, play by the rules!

Sincerely,

The Staff of Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook

**Jeff** · 07-10-2002, 11:01 AM

Black Rhino,

Your argument holds no water. If you're going to operate this way, you don't belong in the sportsbook business.

So the player is playing one side of a game at your book and the other side somewhere else. This is called scalping. Both AMATURE and PRO players alike, do this.

The goal in sports wagering if your a player is to win. If your numbers are so far off that they create scalping opportunities, anyone with half a brain is going to take advantage of it.

MOVE THE DAMN NUMBERS!

Here, your stiffing a GOOD customer who gave you plenty of action. He won at your book by ACCIDENT.

IF HE LOST WOULD YOU REFUND HIS MONEY??

These people are not members of any professiona syndicate, nor are they CHEATING the system.

They are doing nothing wrong. They are simply betting into YOUR numbers. If you don't want these players then simply refund them their money, and ask them to leave. Anything less is plain theivery.

This is no way can be compared to players betting an obvious "bad" line.

**Dragon** · 07-10-2002, 11:31 AM

This is a joke, right? Cmon, where's the camera? April 1st was a few months ago so I know it's not that. Spy TV? This can't be a legitimate thread!

**phep** · 07-10-2002, 01:02 PM

Another so-called sportsbook that takes bets and decides not to pay after the fact? This is becoming way too common these days. There is absolutely nothing that Black Rhino said in their post that holds any weight. One point, it is none of Black Rhino's business what bets a customer makes at another sportsbook. It is truly remarkable that they think that it is their business.

Black Rhino, some news for you. If you take a bet and the bet wins, you have to pay the bet. Nothing more black and white than that. Pathetic.

**BackDoorCover** · 07-10-2002, 02:22 PM

Wow. Its one thing to be a low life thief, like this operation CLEARLY is, but it amazes me how STUPID these people are. Rhino's response is the weakest justification I have ever heard. Why even bother with responding to this?? You might as well say that Dog's money was stolen because he smelled bad. It makes just as much sense. This operation clearly has not dealt much with sportsbetting before because they have no clue.

The scary thing is that they claim to have "verified" the scalping with other books. Obviously a lie, but they throw this around like it prooves their point. Just stick to the LIST books. I will never ever bet at an unlisted book.

**Iluvsports** · 07-10-2002, 02:56 PM

Well I still know nothing about BLACKRHINO to comment on whether they are a good sportsbook or not, need actually customers to post their opinions.

I know certain sportbooks curtail proffesional wagering, and it is in their rule book.

All I can say BLACK RHINO is to once again take the high road, pay the fucker or come to a settlement since you did discover in your opinion he is a PROFESSIONAL, come to a settlement and ask him to take his buisness elsewhere

that to me is the most ethical way to resolove this ......

P.S. Why cant I have this problem, been a long time since I hae collected.

**Cache22** · 07-10-2002, 03:34 PM

You guys should change your name to "BLACK WINO" because obviously you guys have been hitting the "Ripple" once too often
What a crock! and you actually think players are going to post-up with this outfit? You say that you don't allow players to bet the opposite side of a game at another site? What buisness is it of yours? What if I played a 6 team parlay at your site and I won the first 5 games and decided to hedge the last play by betting the other side, would this be illegal at your book? It probably would be. You say some guy made 117 bets in one day, well whats the daily limit? And I'm sure you tell all your new accounts that you'll be giving out their personal betting activity to other books that ask, and you'll inturn be spying on their activity at other books? Damn! This sounds like a marriage.

**dog** · 07-10-2002, 04:17 PM

I reloaded with Blackrhino after a few months hiatus on June 26, one day after I got an email promoting their new site and software and a 20% bonus. They used to be a Starnet book, and I had lost a small balance with their old book. I'm not the guy who placed 117 bets in one month, I placed maybe a dozen bets in the few days I was active on the new software. And the parlay I won was not a scalp. Apparently someone won $6990 and cashed out and this is what they're referring to.

I even went out of my way to point out obvious bad lines, Ryan Lesperance promised me a bonus. You may want to go to Rx to read more.

Still waiting on my original deposit to be refunded by Neteller, my account was deactivated over a week ago.

**The Guesser** · 07-10-2002, 04:30 PM

Back Rhino, WHAT BOOKS are sharing info with you?

What other SportsBooks are willingly giving you PRIVATE information on what a player is playing? This is a security breach of the highest order, and I want to make sure no one I know, nor I, is playing with a Book that does such a thing. Next step is sharing the info with the IRS and anyone else who asks. Needless to say, no one with a brain would be caught dead playing with you.
What business is it of yours, or any other sportsbook, what someone may or may not be playing at another shop? I am just flabbergasted at your audacity in admitting this, if you're not just making it all up to foster a scam.

**chestrockwells** · 07-10-2002, 10:43 PM

I have no problem with any business retaining their right to not have anyone they choose as a customer for any reason, whether you or I or anyone else approves or disapproves of the reasoning behind the decision. But what these people are doing is over the top. What is impressively amazing is that they are actually attempting to defend their position on this............a position that is indefensible even if we accept their side of the story without question.

The "gaming system" implication is BS and allows the book to arbitrarily decide what that is and ultimately gives them a "blanket excuse" to commit this type of blatant FRAUD.

Companies like these, are why I remain unimpressed with the progress the industry as a whole has made in the 6 yrs that I've been playing offshore. And they are the reason why reputable outfits have found it unnecessary to change their "we pay" marketing motto. Ultimately, that's where this industry is at.........and it's not making any progress.

Announcement

Sportsbook that stiffs winners

Sportsbook that stiffs winners

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment